Welcome to the Creative College Journey podcast, the place to help raise awareness on the many pathways to a creative life and education and how college might be a part of it, because it's not where you go to school, but how you go to school that counts. Hosted by professional, creative, and college expert Scott Barnhart, who is chatting with a variety of guests who have some amazing lived experiences from different universities, majors and creative industry interests. And we hope by hearing their stories, it might help give you some inspiration to find your own creative college journey.

I am thrilled to welcome and have a conversation with my next guest today. That is Jordan Spena, who is a graduate of the Orange County School of the Arts, where I met Jordan as an auditioning eighth grader, transferring to the musical theater department from production and design. Very Krysta Rodriguez of you, Jordan. And Jordan is now a second semester freshman, currently pursuing a BFA musical theater from Texas State University. Ever since he took his first ballet class at five years old, he has become a strong advocate for the autonomy of artists believing that performers have the power to create their own projects and opportunities without waiting for permission. You know, I love that mantra. I would like to add Jordan's performance of Black Stash in Peter and the Star catcher was, hands down, one of my favorite I've ever witnessed at the high school level. Outrageously funny, also, Jordan's passions include his dog Crocs and the binge watching of Buffy the Vampire Slayer. So welcome to the Creative College Journey podcast, Jordan Spena. Hi, Jordan.

Thank you. Hi. I love. Deep cuts you made to my past in high school. That's traumatizing and hilarious.

So, Jordan, give us a little quick update. Give us an idea of where you are right now. Literally, how are you doing right now? I know you're in the middle of a semester. Um, and give us a little insight of how you identify creatively and how that relates to your time at Texas State right now.

Sure. well, I mean, actually the entire sort of teaching mentality that they have here at Texas State is that. As artists put ourselves in a box with far too much. On the first day, I remember we were having this conversation with Caitlin the Hopkins, and she was saying, you know, are you like, are you a dancer first? Are you a singer first? Are you an actor first? And then we all answered. And she said, great. Well, you're none of those things anymore. You're, you're a multifaceted human being. our final, by the way, in her class is go out and have a life. Like you have to write an essay about something completely not musical theater related that you did, which is, I think, an invaluable lesson.

I love that. I love Caitlin Hopkins. Ugh.

I'm a big fan entrepreneur, small business owner, queen. But yeah, no, I'm, I'm doing really well. I'm adjusting to being out here sort of by myself without my parents doing everything for me. So that's been fun. Yeah, it's really busy. people said that high school was gonna be harder than college. That's a lie. But I'm having lots of fun.

Oh wow. That's actually surprising. You're finding this more, is it more rigorous or is it more, is it just like the sheer amount of time you're spending on different classes and projects?

I think it's more vigorous, but it's also, I mean, I'm, I, I said that in a sort of shady way. I, uh, it's all things. It's, I've realized that the difference is that it's just, it's more work, but it's all stuff that you actually wanna be doing, even though you sometimes forget it. Like, ah, I have to read another five chapters of audition, but then you realize that you signed up for this.

That that is in fact the contract. That is, that is what you're paying for.

that's true. And also just the nature of this program is that it's really front loaded. Like I'm taking, I, I took 18 hours last semester of this semester. which is the max that you could do. In fact, during orientation, we were talking to some faculty advisor in this group of all the, all the undergrads, um, at Texas State, and they said, who here's taking 15 hours? And some people raise their hands and who's taking 16 hours? And they went up and up and then they went, who here's taking 18 hours? And then the club was in the middle of raised our hands and she went, oh, I know who you guys are. And just sort of out of us to the entire student body. It was, it was really funny. But yeah, that's what I've been up to.

Oh my goodness, I'm so exci. I can't wait to hear more about how your time at Texas State has been. But I wanna, I wanna take this back a little bit. So we're talking college admissions. So I worked with you, you know, you were one of the students at OCSA while I was there. And I helped you on some of your college applications and some of the like mindset, moving forward and you had quite the journey, including auditioning for, if I counted it correctly, 21 programs.

that is, that is correct.

the number?

is the official number.

it is a, that is a hefty, hefty number, but I do, I remember looking at it and it was actually well diversified in terms of you, you had clarity of like what you were after either an acting or MT program, sort of a mixture of some programs, a little more academic leading, a little more conservatory leaning. So you had a lot and you had a lot of like really competitive reaches. You had some great targets. So I will say, while 21 was a lot, it seemed to make sense for you, but can you tell us a little bit about that decision making process of building out that list and maybe part of your journey that landed you at Texas State?

Sure. Well, I think, I mean, I could speak for probably weeks about how sort of, convoluted, the, the Musical theater, college audition machine sort of is, This idea that you need to, like, like we're all so convinced that we're not gonna get in to any places. So we therefore audition for all of the places, which is not the move. But, I also, I, you said that I, I, I knew what I wanted, but I think the reason that I auditioned facility places is because I really was not sure because I, I think as you said, I auditioned for I think 11 like musical theater acting programs, and the rest were all liberal arts. and I think I would've been happy at either one, and I would, I, it was just a decision of like, well, let me just apply to all these different things and whatever I've been into is the path for me, which I don't even know if that was the right mindset either. But it ended up being, I think, fine. And it was fun when I actually did get some acceptances and I got to. visit these campuses and really hone in on, on what I wanted, which was difficult because it's always like, do I wanna get a, a real degree in something academic or do I wanna sort of take a gamble and do this musical theater thing? Which was scary. But that also was why I ended up choosing Texas State because it was a very, low stakes decision because we, it's not a huge financial investment compared to some other programs because, and we could get more into this, but all the musical theater, students have in-state tuition guaranteed to them. And if you can get an academic scholarship, you can basically go for free, which is what a lot of people do. So I didn't feel like I was right. Yeah. So I didn't feel like I was giving up some sort of like vital gland to go here. I was just, just having some fun and going to Texas.

Which then allows for more exploration the idea that you're not, you know, I talk a lot about this, the idea that those financial decisions can give you freedom, freedom of exploration, freedom of expression, like it's, that's really, really powerful. So I love that finances sort of helped and I think your journey is really unique cuz. I think there are a lot of people who are like, well, I haven't been to college so I don't actually know what I want out of college. Right. Like, I don't know if I would like a more conservatory, you know, leaning training versus a more academic I might like both. And Jordan Spena, I can, I can say pretty easily will be fine in either would like, either would make something out of either. So I think for students like you, it is honing in starts to get really scary. The idea of like, um, saying no to options, can be really anxiety producing. Is that, is that accurate?

That's true because again, it just goes back to this whole dumb fear of what if I don't get into all these places? I told myself that I didn't care if I was gonna go to, you know, a, a conservatory program or a liberal arts program, a a big city school or like a school at the campus because I, I just didn't know, cause I haven't been to any of these places, so how could I, um, but then when it got down to it and I started visiting these schools that I'd gotten into, I realized like, oh no, I actually really do care if I have a campus. And I do think that I wanna be able to study outside of musical theater, um, with other classes and stuff. So it's something that I, I don't even know if I really could have narrowed down at the time. But it is definitely a fear thing. I mean, I know there are kids in this program who, who apply to like, about 40 schools, so I don't even think that I'm too crazy. Uh, 4, 4 0, like. Just under 40. It's, it's wild.

It is wild. And I have thoughts. I have thoughts and opinions.

sure.

But Jordan, I think you had something really interesting to happen and, and, and I think it's a really great example for a lot of other people, this idea of like allowing the process to inform you, right? Allowing, like, cuz I do feel like you did know what you wanted. You, you really did. And it was a relatively wide net. But then as you got closer to the decisions, it became super clear. Like it actually wasn't, a hardship to try to figure out which was gonna make sense and. I think you had clarified your buckets, you had clarified your ideas of like what needed to happen in order for you to make this investment. And it sounds like financial decisions were huge, uh, level of training really mattered. Geography maybe didn't matter as much as campus life. And I'll say that like, you know, many people don't imagine San Marcos, Texas as being like the hotbed of musical theater activity. And yet, and yet.

and here we are. Go on, go on TikTok for 10 minutes and you'll, and you'll quickly be proven wrong.

Yeah, exactly. And I mean, I remember back in my day, it was like the idea of like, I remember someone telling me offhanded again, this is like back in the olden days where we didn't have websites to check information. Someone being like, oh, I, I hear University of Michigan has a great musical theater program. And I said, Like, I'm gonna go study musical theater in Ann Arbor. literal words from my mouth.

I remember, remember saying exact same thing, like the exact same way. She's like Michigan. for musical theater. And she also at, like my grandparents both taught there, like, we should know. We should know that Michigan's a big program, but we didn't. It makes, it's wild.

It's, it's crazy. So, uh, this idea that you landed at Texas State doesn't really surprise me in the sense that like, because you were actually clear about your buckets and maybe not knowing how the buckets were gonna line up, um, once they did line up, you were ready to go. Cuz I feel like your commitment process was relatively easy.

Yeah. It, it, I think even once I got into schools, I still was convinced that I didn't know what I wanted. And at the end of the day it sort of narrowed down perfectly to like a musical theater program, an acting program, and a liberal arts program. So it wasn't even deciding the school, it was sort of deciding like the life path that I wanted to make, which was. Insane thing to realize. And I remember having one of probably the worst travel experiences I've ever had going to visit these schools. Like we were trying to get from New York to, Ohio. And, and our flight got canceled. So my mom and I were sitting on the floor of LaGuardia at 4:00 AM just sobbing because our, our plane was canceled and there were no other ones. and at that point, like I had to, I, I couldn't see some of the schools because of this error. And that's when I realized, I was like, oh, I actually don't even need to, cause I just know that I'm gonna go to Texas State. Like, that's when it clicked for me, which is insane.

Just, just a, a lover of the drama. Well done. Jordan Spena, a real dramatic setting. Canceled flights. LaGuardia Airport. Hilarious. So now that you're at Texas State, I, I, I'm curious like. I know the BFA program there is is quite rigorous and, very consuming. Are you finding there are other topics because you are so academically inclined Are you, are you foreseeing a concentration, a minor? Are you seeing other lanes of study while you're at Texas State?

I do. As of now. I said I, again, the freshman schedule's so packed, and then once you get to probably junior year, that's when you have more time to pick up minors. I'm, I'm really hoping to get a minor in, in something like art history. There are some, it's a great program here, apparently. I will say that I also am in the honors college, which is probably one of the, the greatest parts of. School, I would say, because the classes are so incredible. Like last semester I took a, a class called, non-Violent Social Change and, and it was all about like non-violent approaches to, to getting things done. And I, and I wrote like a 20 page research paper on this group of nuns called The Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence. It's like a bunch of drag queens, who go around sort of like undoing queer shame. And I just, I, I just got to do that, which is insane. And, and this semester I'm taking a class called Memoirs from often Neuro Divergent Math, which sounds very fancy, but I, I just, I feel so lucky that I, I, I get to take these classes and I get to continue to explore, even though I've sort of decided on, on one path that I can, I can take a little fork of the road too,

I love that. And you know, it's those classes. I truly believe this is my own hot take. That those are the classes that make you a better actor. Those are the classes that make you a better singer. Those are the things that really prep you for a creative career because the, the, the training is needed, but it's often very surface level. The idea of getting into how to use your creative mind in a way that stokes interests It helps make opportunities for you. That's, that's so exciting. I want to take that class.

it's awesome. It's a lot of reading, but I'm getting it done. And you can't be an actor without knowing how to be a person. So

Ding, ding, ding. Uh, just to follow up on this what, like curriculum staff members, like what is lighting you up while you're there? At Texas State?

oh my gosh. I, I actually have a full notes app list of things that I talk about when I, when I speak on Texas state, just so I can brag because there are so many cool things. I think, I think the biggest, my favorite part of the program here, just in general, is that decisions do not get made. Like period. They don't get made without the students having input. Anytime a staff member's interviewing to get hired, they're interviewing with the, like the entire student body and we all get to say if they get hired or not. It is not a under the table thing. We decide our own show season, we make pretty much every big decision, which makes sense cuz we're the ones writing checks every semester. which I think is something that you need to be looking for in a program. If, if you feel that they're not making such equitable choices, if they're mistreating their students, that might not be the best, the best place to go. I also just really love the way that the program embraces diversity and acknowledges that musical theater really is a global art form and does not look any one way. We just had a, a speaker in a few months ago who spoke all about like voice pedagogy for trans and non-binary actors. Like voice feminization, voice masculinization and how that, how, how you sound can affect your self perception and why that's such an important issue. And we, we bring in people from Broadway for racial justice. We do all sorts of just really fascinating classes that have nothing to do with technique, frankly. It's all about like expanding your world views. And yes, it's about musical theater, but it's also just about how to be a person, which again, is so important because how can you be an actor? You don't know what it's like to be a human being.

It's everything. It's what we're mirroring, it's what we're putting out there. We are the barometers of society in so, so many ways. I, I also love this idea and I, I'm seeing more schools take this approach, this idea of including students in decision making. And I love it. And I love it for multiple reasons. One is that you get more voices at the table. Just more voices generally make better decisions. but what I love is students are then actually privy to what it takes to make a good decision. Like you are actually in the ground floor, and I'm sure I would put money on it, that there are many differing opinions. About certain decisions, especially when it comes to shows and it's really, it's really easy to be on the sideline, being mad at an artistic director about a decision, and it's actually much more complicated and much more educationally beneficial to actually work it out amongst a group of people. And the idea that you're having to face those difficult and they are difficult conversations, they are not easy. I would imagine that is a amazing experience for a young artist to then actually walk into the world going like, oh, I understand why the school made this decision. I understand why we as a collective made this decision. It may not have been the decision I would've made by myself, but as a collective, I now understand why we're doing this show rather than that show.

And I, and I will add to that, like just also the idea of why. Of making informed decisions about why we're doing certain shows, like at this moment in time, we're doing Pippin right now, for example. And if you know anything about Pippin, you know that there's this, there's the old version with a certain ending, and then there's a new version with a certain ending and one's much darker, and the the rights are out for the newer version. Which sort of spoiler alert involves this like troop of actors sort of preying upon this child. And we had a really big conversation with the director about how given what's happening in Texas right now with drag queens being banned for children, how that might not be the message that we as a community want to be putting out there. So we, our, our, our director, they wrote to who, I forget who even has the, the rights to pip in, but they wrote to them and, and now we've changed the ending. So it's a, it's a really just a very eye-opening process.

I love, I love that Caitlin in Texas State, you guys are taking the time to embrace those conversations. It's, it's a wonderful thing and I, and again, it's a great learning opportunity for everyone. It actually teaches, the faculty too, teaches the admin, you know, what are the students thinking about?

Mm-hmm. absolutely.

So a big topic that comes up in this line of work that I'm doing right now is rejection and the idea of getting the no's and the fear and anxiety that comes around getting the no's and. Jordan, you got a fair amount of yeses and a fair amount of nos. It was actually, it was like kind of right down the middle

it was exactly half and half there. There is one program that I added very last minute, just cuz my mom made me because she went there. Um, and I got in. But if had I not done that, it would've been 10 to 10.

And, and we talk about this all the time of like, you need to expect nos. I don't think that needs to hyperly inform a scarcity mindset, but just knowing, because ultimately you only need one.

true.

Right? You only need one. Cuz then you had to say no to nine programs. But I'm curious, like how did you walk through? Those rejections. Um, how, because I'm sure some of those schools were schools that you pined for and some schools that you were maybe like Midland about, so I'm sure they were sort of different. Talk to me about your process in rejection

Well, I mean, obviously rejection sucks and I can't just, we're not gonna sit here and pretend that it doesn't. And I, I, I know I was saying earlier that, you know, you can't apply to all these places because you're scared of not getting in. But that, but it, that doesn't minimize like the disappointment that you do feel when you get that email from get accepted saying we're sorry. But I, again, I knew, you told me, my parents told me that there were gonna be a lot of nos. it's something that you have to get good at if you're gonna be in the performing arts anyway. So think of it as a, a facet of your training. and also you don't wanna get into all the schools, cuz then when you have to go visit them, you're gonna be spending thousands of dollars on airfare. So think of it that way. But I, I vividly remember, I think, I don't know the colleges, they must have some sort of group chat or something cuz I got five rejections in one day. They planned it. Ugh, But I remember I emailed you and I, I told you just because I was giving you an update and you responded to me and you said, this is fantastic news. Um, I was like, what? And I kept reading and, and you explained, well this is great information cuz it means that they don't align with your values and now you can just get on with your life and stop doing hypotheticals. Which, yeah, you don't wanna end up in a place that. you find out too late isn't where you want to be. And that's just that, that is a really important bit of information and it's a, it's a service of those schools to actually tell you early on rather than having you end up going there and hating it, cuz that is a real waste of money.

100% this, this idea that it is just data, it is just information, and you're looking for people who are as interested in you as you are in them. It's like, it's like, I guess it's like dating in that regard. Ultimately you really are just looking for matches and the schools get to say, yeah, maybe this isn't a match. And what I know to be true, it's rarely about talent because the talent is always in surplus. There are really talented humans out there. And it's sort of aligning the talent, the spirit, the mission, the mindset to the institution. It, it really, talent is, is a pretty weak, decider for a lot of schools in terms of yes or, or nos.

And that's something that I've also been thinking a lot about how this idea, and again, it goes back to this whole concept of, of, of it being a really expensive thing to try to get a degree in the school theater before you even get to the school because. the talented, the quote unquote talented people are the people who are able to pay for the training, who are able to pay for the, you know, blue screen background and the, and the fancy mic and the music video camera to do the pre-screen. and it, it has, it really has nothing to do with like potential or who you are. Um, that's an important thing to keep in mind, especially when you start seeing like other people getting into places that you want to get into. Like, oh, they're not as talented. I can, I can kick my face. And they can't even get their light to 90 degrees. It's like, well, maybe they can, but they just haven't taken dance classes since they were five. Like they, because they couldn't, it's a whole, it's a whole conversation.

Yeah. And I, and I really do, you know, as much as schools and admin can get a bad rap, I really do believe most heads of program are genuinely seeking potential. They are, they are in good faith. Whether or not they always, you know, act on that good faith. I, I really do believe they are seeking, students that match their training, their options, their opportunities. And, and I, I do think with that rejection is understanding that they need you as much as you need them. They need your tuition dollars, they need. You know, until you are admitted and enrolled, they can't access those scholarship funds that pay for their facilities and staff. even if you're going for free, you still have to go in order for them to acquire any endowment funds. So you are an important part of their puzzle of how to function as an ecosystem, which is so fascinating that I think we, we often think as an applicant we're just sort of like, I just need the acceptance. I just need the Yes. Just gimme the yes and then I'll decide. But I'm, I really like this idea of walking in with a little more agency and power. And if someone gives you a no, you, you move on to the next. So you just brought up finances. You know, I love this conversation and you gave us a little, a little hint at this, and I know you're only one year in, but I'm asking a lot of people in terms of finances, do you think you're overspending, underspending, or are you getting it just right?

I would say I'm underspending for it. I also don't think that there is, that it's possible to underspend ever in college. especially with this degree because you are knowingly entering an industry where you're probably not going to break even for a while. so I'm hesitant to say that I'm underspending, but I I I'm not gonna graduate with student debt, which is huge. I remember before I even applied to schools, you told me, you said, if you graduate with, you know, a hundred thousand dollars of student debt, I will find you and I will, I will give you a firm talking to, and perhaps I made my decision, my decision accordingly. I don't know. but that's huge. So yeah, I do think I'm under spending again, I mentioned you get in-state tuition if you go to Texas State and if you have an academic scholarship, which lots of people do, it's, an easier number to swallow than, I don't know, some other schools where you're paying$90,000 a semester and

Yeah, no, I think, I, I think that's, that's accurate and it's finding those programs, and I think part of Texas State's competitiveness is honestly that package. I, I think the idea that students know that that's available to them if they were to get into the program. So it's, it's made it a very enticing place to be, even in San Marcos, Texas.

in San Marcus, Texas.

But, I mean, I'm sure there's still all the ancillary costs, books, flights,

Oh yeah.

Yeah, so how great that at least at, at the baseline, the bulk of your education costs are being really well covered, and that then gives you so much freedom moving forward when you graduate. Be that go to grad school, go straight to industry, moving back to la, moving to New York, moving to Chicago, staying in Austin, like whatever that, whatever the case may be, you're not having to make decisions based on being strapped. You're making decisions based on what it is you want to be doing.

I mean, also you just don't wanna be going to school worrying about like how you're, you're burdening your, your family because that's no way to, especially if you're getting a degree in musical theater, cause that that can feel really just sort of depressing So I'm very grateful that that's not, not something that I have to deal.

a question, do, did any of your AP classes transfer?

Yep. All of them.

So you are, so are you presumably like, doing quite well in terms of credit accumulation?

I, I, I think I am. I, I still haven't even, one thing about Texas State is the website, it's old and it's, it's hard to get information sometimes

Got it. Yeah.

mean, like, I'm gonna graduate, I think. And also even people who, who don't have AP classes usually do just fine. I think once you get to senior year, you actually sort of struggle to fulfill all the hours that you, to maintain your scholarship because it's not, it's not horrible. But I'm grateful that I have AP classes just cuz it means that I can take other courses that are maybe more, more fun for me or more geared towards what I'm interested in.

I love that. I love that. So again, you're talking a lot about this, this BFA musical theater and the the sense that it can be a little bit of a narrow industry pathway. But I'm curious because I, I know Jordan, you have like lots of interests both as a writer, as an academic, as a, a dancer. You were, I mean, I know it was middle school, but you were in production and design like, so you're hyperly creative in multiple pots and, and very intelligent. Talk to me about what do you sort of see as unique pathways for Jordan Spena moving forward? But I'm curious of like what you think in three years time you might be seeking and reaching for.

I mean, not to be the, the cliche. obviously for me, maybe not, obviously not everyone wants it, but for me, I would love to be a performer in some capacity, whether that be with, you know, doing regional theater, kicking my face at, on the great White Way. I don't know, wherever my path takes me. It's not even that I feel the need to find paths that I would pursue if I didn't perform. I'm increasingly understanding that even if you make it big on Broadway, like that probably will not be able to support you for your entire life. So I, I am really hoping that I can, I mean, I don't really see myself straying away from the arts ever, which is the honest truth. But I would love to do more. I mean, you know, I'm a, I love to write, I, I love Mia play. I, I'm hoping someday to get some of my work produced. We're actually doing a reading of one of my shows in a little while here, so there we go. Um, but also maybe, I don't know, directing, choreographing, I'm still into like scenic design and stuff that production and design part of me have not, has not left my soul yet. So we'll

Nor should it.

yeah, I mean, Mr. Paul, before you came, told me, he said, you know, the more doorways you have available to you, it means that when one opens, you can go in.

Yeah, and I hear this idea of like, definitely wanting to stay in the arts, wanting to pursue within it, but I, I, I love that you brought up the idea that even if you make it big and mark my words, Jordan Spena, you will dance on Broadway. Like I have. No, Should that be a want of yours? That is an obtainable goal. I know it feels farfetched, but it is absolutely an obtainable goal. but the idea, even making it, I think of some of the most successful people I know. I think of some of my castmates from Book of Mormon. I think of Andrew Rannels, who, or Nikki James and, and Josh Gad, who are literally at the top of their acting career and have continually found these pivots and micro pivots. And, you know, from moving into film and television into voiceover, into writing, Andrew has written two books and has a constant reinventing themselves with directing, writing, directing for film, directing for stage, finding the next right step. So that even when you're at the top, there's a constant sense of renewal, rebirth, some sort of change in shift that should be expected. And and I think a lot of, uh, early career actors really miss that cuz you can start developing that muscle now.

And I mean, that is also slim, that is very beautiful about the career, but also does keep me up at night. This idea of, you know, being able to support myself. and you can, you'd best believe that graduation I will be sending you an email and then like, what, what do I do? Um, but, And also it's another thing that's just absurd about musical theater in general. it starts at, you know, how expensive it's to apply to college, how expensive it's to go to college, and then how once you are at the top of your craft perceived topic of your craft on Broadway, you still like, might not be making a living wage. And I, I think my, one of the things that Texas State has done is it's expanded my perception of what success is. And I'm hoping that as an industry we're just sort of starting to understand that also theater is everywhere. It's not just in one place. And in fact, oftentimes the shows you see on Broadway have like abusive work environments, really horrible conditions. And you might not even want to, pursue that. And I don't, I don't know. We'll see what happens.

Yep. And I. The want of having the dream is a wonderful thing. It can be an amazing true north. But what I talk a lot about is permission to also allow the dream to, to be in line with the adult that you are. Meaning you don't have to pin your entire adult life on the dreams of a 16 year old. You can honor the dreams of a 16 year old, but you can also translate them in new ways, because life happens, circumstances happen, but you can still keep your true north so long as it's not on a hyperly hyperly fixed. If your definition of success is a hyperly fixed point, you will always be disappointed.

Yeah. Kayla Hopkins talk a lot about the phrase she uses is, if you're not getting food from the right place, then you'll never be fed, like if you, if you're constantly reaching for this goal. even if it is attainable, like you're, you're missing all the other opportunities to nourish yourself, then that's just not a reproductive way. It's, it's just not a way to live really.

Yeah. Well, and, and in that it's not creative,

No.

It actually, you then lose the creativity in your creative art form,

Mm-hmm. which we know is very important

it's hyperly important. It's, I mean, I called the business creative college journey for a reason because I am seeking to talk to young creatives, people who want a creative life and. Your life has to be creative. You actually have to think outside the box, and you have to make things in order to have a creative life. And that requires artistic risk. That requires planning, that requires strategy, and a big, healthy dose of intuition.

for sure.

All right, Jordan spin. I ask everyone this question, and I know this isn't that far away, like this isn't that long ago, but what is the one thing you wish you had understood about the college application process before you started? So, talking to 17, 18 year old Jordan Spena, what would you tell that version of yourself,

Um, the first thing I would say, and I think this sort of ties into the whole mission statement of, of your business as a whole, is that, just because your friends are doing something different to you does not mean that you are doing it wrong. I, I, I remember hearing about like all the, musical, your college edition and those groups, which can be. but I and I, I didn't really have any of that and I was so, hung up on this idea of like, oh, well, um, I'm never, I'm not gonna get into school, school. I don't have this advantage and spoiler, I did fine. also like deadlines, you'll, in my class in high school, we all just agree that we weren't gonna talk about it, but of course I found out like, oh my God, they already submitted to this school. and deadlines can be, can be useful for like financial aid, you know, submitting your application or at least that you can get the aid, but also you don't need to be the first person. Don't feel like pressured to, to hit send before you're ready. Um, because I just think a lot about some of the schools that I added to my list that ended up being, some of my top choices that I got into were late additions. And if I'd, if I had hit, send in all my applications and then put away my computer forever and just sort of sat back early on, I would've totally. Breezed over those choices, and I, and I think I would've had a much harder time. So your path is your path, which is just why I look. I loved your whole ethos of, you know, there is no one right way to achieve your dreams. And applying for colleges should not be a, classist uh, endeavor. It should be for everyone because everyone has the potential and everyone's talented and everyone's beautiful human being. Don't put yourself, don't put yourself against others. Oh my gosh.

Well and truly spoiler alert, the way towards those dreams or those goals is not actually through talent or through the institution. It is actually through your perseverance and your resiliency. So I'm gonna ask a follow-up question in that regard. Jordan Spena, had you gotten into zero schools, like worst case scenario, Armageddon showed up, you got zero acceptances to all 21 of those schools, what would you have done?

It's so funny you asked this cause I was thinking about that every single day from the months of, I don't know, September to, to, February. Um, because that is, you know, our brains, we love to just catastrophize. We love to think the worst case scenario and it, it does happen to some people. and I was. I just told myself, if I don't get into any schools, I'll just, I don't know, just start doing it myself. Like auditioning for places and, and, and seeing what happens. Like, like production's, not new schools. or also you could just apply again. And now how wonderful that you have been through the process once. And you know, I mean, maybe if you had an audition with the school and they gave you really weird vibes in the room, you know that you don't have to apply to that school again, then that's great for you to know. but also it is a really exhausting and emotionally draining process. And I do remember thinking, I'm so glad that I did get in places because I don't think I would wanna do it ever again. but if that's your path, you don't have to do it ever again. I know plenty of really successful people who are going to community college or who are just not going to school at all. and it's, it's a very, that's the great thing about the arts, right, is that you don't actually need a, a degree to get hired places. It's just based off of whether you have a passion and whether you can tell a story.

A little louder for the people in the back. You do not need a degree in musical theater to work in musical theater. It is not a prerequisite. Is it useful? Sure. Can the training and the networking be great? Sure. Is it necessary? No. And that's where I love this idea of like, even if your worst case scenario happens and no schools say yes to you, the option to go to community college and transfer the option for a gap year and reapply the option to just go straight into industry. They're all there for you. And ultimately your job as a young creative is to go like, well, I know if I get these nos I'll survive. I will find the next right step for me, and I will start my part of the journey.

and I mean also we say worst case scenario is, is not, is in all school projecting you? No. Worst case scenario is them accepting you and going and it not being matched and you wasting hundreds of thousands of dollars. That's that's worst case scenario that would actually set you back.

And if you're in a really fixed mindset and you're not actually picking up on all the cues and clues, that scenario happens more often than I care to admit

right?

that I know way too many people with multiple six-figure, loans that they are, they are contending with those choices of a. Of a slightly impulsive 17, 18 year old. and it affects what they're able to do creatively now and again, even that is not end of days for them. It's just, it becomes something that they have to take on and, and consider moving forward.

Yeah. I mean, it is an objectively absurd thing to ask a teenager to make, probably the biggest financial decision they'll make for the next 10 years, and you just have to acknowledge that, it's you, you can't, again, it's what you said. You can't have blinders on because then you'll make a, a rash choice that might not actually end up benefiting you.

Yeah. And you want everyone on the same page. You want your family, you the school, to be in agreement about what you're moving forward. And look, if you can swing the, the 60, 80 90 K a year, great. Great. Like there's, and there's a lot to be said for some really expensive programs as well as the scholarship opportunities that they may present you. Cuz I also am big on diversifying your list based on finance. You should have some financial reaches with the understanding that it has to come to a certain number in order for you to, to make it a viable option. So if I see 20 of those, I, I would red flag it. If I saw one or two of those, I'd be, um, intrigued.

right. that's another thing that I think we love to do is just, is just say, well, oh, if I get into this one, I'm going go, it's the top program I'm going to go. It doesn't matter how much I have to spend, I'll make it work.

Yeah, and I understand this want to like, and this is to the parents out there, I understand the wants to. up Excalibur and just absolutely battle come hell or high water for your students and your child's dreams and wants and these hopes.

Yes.

absolutely, it's like so noble. It's so full of love and heart and it can also be a blinder. And this idea of like being able to putting a limit, for everyone's financial stability is not necessarily a hardship. It may actually be the kind of clarity that gives this young creative the chance to actually go after what they're after, cuz the school's not gonna solve.

That is the biggest thing that I think is so helpful is actually having like a literal, like a number of written down on a piece of paper of what the, the peak is for you. not like a, a ambiguous like, oh, around in this ballpark. No, like an actual, like an absolute max of what you can afford. because that just makes it so much easier if,

100% because then the number tells you what, what the decision is, not I'm breaking someone's heart.

right?

That's huge.

its facts. Yeah.

We love a fact. We love data

the fact we love the truth.

Well, Jordan, are there any other sort of like thoughts or like nuggets that you feel like you want to share with any of the listeners?

Ooh. For college auditions specifically, they are, they are, um, sitting in a cramp little audition room, for hours on end to NBC view and not to see a performance of you. Like they're not watching you trying to be trying. you're an actor and you can pretend to be a character, but you cannot pretend to be yourself. Cuz we are all really bad at that. You can only be yourself, and they can tell too. So that's the biggest thing I would say is that if you aren't absolutely, crazy about the, the material that you have to give people, find something else, if you can, because it really, the joy is what shows it's not a perfect polished, hundred dollars coach performance. It's, it's the fact that you like to do what you do

I love that. Dare to show that you want to be there and that that requires enjoying the process, enjoying the activity. Even as stressful as those college auditions can be, or art supplement packages and all that, it comes with it.

but you also don't owe them that. You also don't owe them the, this act of wanting to be there.

No, cuz that that cuts through, it totally cuts through. It's disingenuous.

It does.

But part of your job is to find ways to enjoy the process authentically. And you can acknowledge the things that are kind of crappy about it, but what within it, what within those two to five minutes in that room are you gonna light up about? Because that's what you're, that is the goal is for you to light up in that room.

Yeah.

And it, it doesn't, it doesn't always land. Some rooms it will land some rooms it won't, but that's the mission. And it's okay to fail at the mission. But that is ultimately the goal is, is enjoying those, those, those two to five minutes.

and take and like take note of the, of how you feel in each room too, because that's something that I think about a lot, or, or did think about when I was making the decision. in fact, we actually, this past month have been having our on-campus auditions, so we're all required to help, um, like set up auditions, show people around. So that's been really cool for me to sort of be on the other side of the, of the process. and I just tell people like, remember how it felt to be in front of these people? And if you enjoyed it and you get in, that might be the place for you. and another thing I would say is if you find yourself choosing between options, watch the senior showcases. Like go go onto the website and look at what they're actually. what the people at the end of their college journey are presenting to the industry. Because that was another thing that really helped make my decision. Cause I watched Texas State Showcase and I watched showcases of other schools and some schools didn't even have showcases. And that was sort of a, a red flag to me. Not that showcases everything, but it

Because it's not

Right. I don't know it. And that's also like a big, a big misconception too. But it does show you like what these students want to want to be putting out

It is. It's a great reflection for that of like culminating capstone esque, uh, work of like, okay, four years later, this is where they're at. Cuz again, I know, I know you know this, I know this, I talk a lot about this, the showcase part. There are just as many people who walk away from really elite institutions that have really fancy showcases that do not get bites from industry. And I, I just talking to Roy O'Malley, he said that was him. He was at Carnegie Mellon. He got crickets in New York. And relatively crickets in LA outside of one manager that basically would've taken anyone and he put one foot in front of the other and found his way towards the Tony nomination, like he's doing just fine. Where a lot of his peers who booked agents right out the gate do not have the career that Rory has. And that comes down to that resilience piece of like, you can't wait for the school, the industry to do it for you. You've gotta have that agency for yourself.

Yeah. And also some schools will, a big selling point will be like, out of the past 10 classes, 99% of our students have booked agents out of their showcase. That is not necessarily a reflection of success, like some of these agencies take advantage. the students and, that is the last thing I will also say about schools too, that if you get into a place, even if it's a top program, but you do not think they reflect your values and you think they, they treat students in a way that you would not be okay with, like nothing is worth going there. So many of my classmates here, and I don't mean this as like a, a brag or aflex, but they got into like top, top programs and they visited the campus and they saw like some really scary things and they turned them down without like a second glance. Like nothing is worth compromising your values because you wanna be able to belt your face off and, and kicks your nose like that. If not,

Correct, correct. Jordan Sina. Correct. Ugh. Jordan, I'm so grateful to know you. I'm so excited to see what you're doing and watching you continue to grow and expand as an artist and a performer. I just, I'm just infinitely proud of you and. Super excited to see what happens next. if people wanted to get ahold of you or see what you're up to, how might they do? So

Yes, you can follow me on Instagram at Jordan and Dmk if you have any questions. Um, or you can follow me on TikTok at the same handle. There is nothing on there right now, but

Okay. TikTok,

But listen, if you wanna live in mystery, you can follow that. Um, yeah, I'm, I'm happy to answer questions if you want, if you want the real scoop on what's going on.

that is a great way. I, I talk to students often about, and families of like, how do they find out what's really going on at schools? And one way is to, is to talk to boots on the ground is talk to students who have recently graduated or are currently there. Um, reach out and, and try to get some boots on the ground information cuz that that can be vital. Um, again, everyone's opinion. Take it with a grain of salt. But at the end of the day, getting as much of that information can be really useful to cut through the noise of advertisement and sales, which is what admissions, pamphlets really are. So getting that, getting that balance of the two. Jordan, thank you. I'm so glad you were here. That's another interview episode of the Creative College Journey podcast. We hope this episode with Jordan Spena was beneficial to you. And I wanna just thank you for taking time out of your busy day to listen if you are in need of some encouragement, guidance, and inspiration for your college journey and would like to work with me. Do not hesitate to reach out to our website, www.creativecollegejourney.com, to schedule a free no obligation. I swear it's no obligation. One hour consultation to find out the many ways that the creative College journey can help you on your path. You can also find me on Instagram at Scott Barnhardt. If you enjoy the show, please rate and review us on Apple Podcast. It helps others find us. And be sure to come back in the coming weeks for more discussions about creative college admissions, lowering the temperature on the process and the many industry pathways and transferrable skills that a creative education and life can offer. Don't forget, it's not where you go to school, but how you go to school. That counts. Thank you. Thank you, Jordan.

you. That was like an NPR level, like sign off.

We're, we're doing it. We're doing the

Listen, that's wow. Whoa. Wow.