Announcer: 0:04

Welcome to the Creative College Journey podcast, the place to help raise awareness on the many pathways to a creative life and education and how college might be a part of it, because it's not where you go to school, but how you go to school that counts. Hosted by professional, creative, and college expert Scott Barnhardt, who is chatting with a variety of guests who have some amazing lived experiences from different universities, majors and creative industry interests. And we hope by hearing their stories, it might help give you some inspiration to find your own Creative College Journey.

Scott Barnhardt: 0:45

I am so excited to have this conversation today with a former student of mine and someone I just adore. Zoe Seare is currently a sophomore slash rising junior in the BFA in Theater Teaching program at the University of Utah in Salt Lake City, Utah. This is a four year professional degree that prepares students to teach theater in a variety of dynamic and challenging learning environments housed within the College of Fine Arts. This BFA is committed to the teaching and learning of all humans in educational and community spaces. While she went to University of Utah to obtain her BFA in musical theater, she transferred after her first year into the theater teaching degree and has thrived in this new curriculum and community. Zoe studied musical theater at the Orange County School of the Arts and performed in productions of Quilters that was also presented at the 2020 International Thespian Festival, As You Like It, 10th Street Follies. And she was a frequent participant in Classroom Cabaret and Cabaret For A cause and performing with the Pros concerts, one with Jessica Vosk and the other with Megan McGinnis. At the University of Utah, she recently worked on SEUSICAL TYA with Youth Theater at the U as the assistant director and as an understudy for the cat in the hat. And this is a really unique program at the University of Utah that allows the department university students to have an additional performance opportunity while mentoring young people all the while working with their community program. Zoe wants to use her love and passion for theater to teach new generations of students about empathy and acceptance through theater arts in either high school and or community theater. She advocates for accessible theater and making sure that all students feel safe and comfortable to take risks and try new things in the theater space. And with that, we welcome to the podcast Zoe Seare.

Zoe Seare: 2:37

Hello.

Scott Barnhardt: 2:38

Hi, Zoe. Oh, it's so nice to see you. Thank you so much for, for hopping onto this podcast.

Zoe Seare: 2:44

Of course. Thank you for having me.

Scott Barnhardt: 2:46

So we start off with a quick update. I know you are like about to hop into finals. How are you doing? Where are you right now? And, and truly answer the question like, actually how are you?

Zoe Seare: 3:01

I'm actually good. I'm very excited. I just turned in my last online final, so all I have left is a presentation. Um, so I'm feeling very relieved to be done with the semester and, I'm currently in my apartment, that's close to the university and, I love it here. I live with a really awesome roommate and I'm just, I'm, I'm going home in a week, so I am, I'm good. I'm very excited to be done and to have a summer and relax.

Scott Barnhardt: 3:36

Zoe if you would tell us who are you creatively, like how do you identify creatively, what makes up the artist? That is Zoe. I.

Zoe Seare: 3:45

I would say I'm a teacher first, a performer second, at this point in my life, I identify mostly with teaching. It's just been such a fulfilling thing for me to do, and I love working with children. I think it's so wonderful to influence a new generation and to get them involved in theater, and so I think that I really identify strongly with that aspect of theater, but I also love performing and I still take acting classes and voice lessons and try to fulfill myself in that way creatively as well. So I would say it's a, it's a pretty good mixture of both.

Scott Barnhardt: 4:24

I, I love that. You know, you, you're, you're preaching to the choir here when you're talking about the love of performing and the love of teaching and that interaction between the two. So I, I just, I didn't learn that until well into my thirties that teaching was a part of my creative identity. So the fact that you are figuring that out now, I think is, is pretty remarkable.

Zoe Seare: 4:49

Thank you. It's, it's the best. It's so fun, and I, I don't think I would've realized that without where I am today. I just, all my past experiences have just led to this moment in my life, so I'm very happy with it.

Scott Barnhardt: 5:04

it all adds up. It all adds up. So, you know, Zoe, I was there on the ground floor with you as you were walking through this, this college process. You, you were part of our online bootcamp. Now, you know, full disclosure, you were in the midst of the graduating class of the pandemic, meaning a bulk of your junior year and most of your senior year were entirely online. So we can acknowledge that that added a whole layer of stress and confusion to, to your process. But, um, you know, I've known you since your freshman year of high school. I would love to, to go back and like actually revisit some of those conversations we had. Um, and also just your mindset of you as, as a junior, as you were starting to think about where you wanted to go, how you were approaching this college process. I know college was an important piece for you, and maybe sort of what led you to your decision making, to where you are right now. But I'd love to go back from, from that, you know, junior year in high school point of view.

Zoe Seare: 6:10

Yeah. Um, well, in junior year I was very BFA or bust. Um, I was BFA musical theater or bust. And I, you know, my mom would be like, well, what about this BA program? And I'd be like, no, I only want a B F A. Which is crazy to me now because I look back and I'm like, girl, what are you doing? Like,

Scott Barnhardt: 6:34

You love a ba.

Zoe Seare: 6:36

I love a, yeah. Like I technically have a bfa, but it's more, it is more like a BA in the grand scheme of things. So I'm like, looking back on it, you know, I, I don't know why I had such a BFA bias,

Scott Barnhardt: 6:51

it's so funny cuz you're also, I I, you strike me as someone and you, uh, certainly in high school you were very academic forward. Like you, you, you seem to really thrive in a lot of your academic classes while also equally loving theater. Like you were, you know, you were a total theater junkie, like you loved theater. But it was interesting when the, I, I love that, that idea cuz it actually resonates for me too. I was very BFA or bust despite loving school. I love school, I love the other classes.

Zoe Seare: 7:24

Yeah. It's, it's so interesting that, that was my mindset back then, and I was really looking for like a big, big-ish school, that I did. I did really want like sports and stuff like that, wherever I was going. And, but I also wanted to have that like rigid musical theater training at that time. And, um, I auditioned for like, I think I had 14 schools, and I got into four of them. Uh, so it was a really interesting process for me and like getting accepted sometimes to the bas of the program and then saying, no, I wanted the b f a. And I also was very like, I'm gonna go outta state because I don't wanna live here anymore. Which like, I love being out of state and I love having the two different environments, but I look back and I'm like, I could've, like, I would've gotten the same education. I still would've lived on campus. Like I think I just wanted to get away. I was like, independent. Yeah. And then I got to college and I was like, kind of sad. So it's just very different. It's very interesting to look at my values then are so different than my values now.

Scott Barnhardt: 8:43

Yeah. Can you, I mean, I wanna dig in this a little further cuz I, I talk to so many, you know, 17, 18 year olds who are, are, you know, very fixated on the exact same thing that you're talking about. And that's neither good nor bad. It's just their state of being, right. They're just fixated on, I really want this training, I really want this specific line of training. Any insight in terms of why you felt so fixated on that? Even with the gentle nudges that were coming from, you know, your teachers, your, your parents? Like what was, what was that fixation?

Zoe Seare: 10:27

I think that in my head, even though like, this obviously isn't true, I was like, a BFA is gonna guarantee me to go to Broadway. Like that is what I, I can't believe I had, like, my elitist thought at that time was so bad, but I thought, you know, If I get a BFA, like they're gonna train me really well, and when I get to Broadway, I'm gonna know what I'm doing and that's simp. Like, that's simply not the only path. Um, but in my head, I, you know, a lot of performers did get a, BFA, so I was like, that's what I should do. And, and I really wanted to, I think also I really wanted to be immersed in the art at the time and be immersed in that, like training. So, a, BFA to me felt more like that at the time.

Scott Barnhardt: 11:19

And that is some real talk. You know, we know it's an insecure, you know, job market for entertainers, for people, for musical theater performers. And somehow there's a false sense of security if you got a BFA that you're gonna have a better chance at, you know, employment and it, you know, having been on the other side of it, that doesn't affect employment. Your degree, your actual degree. Now, how you train, you know, the, the hours put in, that does matter. Of course it matters. But it is a really interesting little, like, mind hack of, nope, it's, it is actually, it's all about your approach

Zoe Seare: 12:05

Mm-hmm. Absolutely.

Scott Barnhardt: 12:06

oh my God, I, this is, this is great Zoe. What landed you when you were, when you were going through the auditions and you landed, you got acceptances to, to four universities and there were a few wait lists as well that were sort of lingering, um, which is also success. I also like, you know, four, four out of 14 is actually a beautiful return, in many ways. sort of led you towards University of Utah? Like how did that school become sort of your front runner?

Zoe Seare: 12:42

Honestly, there was this moment where I, I had, I was deciding at the end between Roosevelt University and Chicago and the University of Utah, and both are very different spots, very different climates. Like I would either be a six, seven hour flight away from home or a one and a half hour flight away from home. And I think first that had a lot to do with it because near the end of my application process, I started to realize I did want to be closer to home.

Scott Barnhardt: 13:12

Hmm.

Zoe Seare: 13:13

And even though I was at the beginning, I was like, east Coast would be awesome because I'd love to live there. I realized that I still at this point in my life, really valued my family. I had a relationship, I had a lot of things going on and I wanted to be close, but also far. So I think the University of Utah allowed me to have that. But also I was on a like group call

Scott Barnhardt: 13:40

Yeah.

Zoe Seare: 13:40

or Roosevelt, I was on a group call for Roosevelt and they were going over their curriculum and they were just saying different things. And I remember sitting there being like, this isn't what I want this. They don't have what I want. I want dance every day. And the U has that. I want private voice lessons once a week. The U has that. And I closed my computer and I walked downstairs and I went to my mom and I said, I'm committing to the University of Utah. And she was like, what? You just went to the other meeting? And I said, I know, but they don't have what I want. And I committed before I stepped foot on campus, we were supposed to go visit like that following week for my spring break. But something in me, like, I was like, this is, that is not where I'm supposed to go. This is, and I know that's so cheesy, but, and I used to think that I'd be like, everyone would come in and talk to us about their college process and they'd be like, I just knew. And I was like, that's stupid. What do you mean? You just knew? Like, how are you gonna, and then I got faced with the same thing and I did. I just knew that that is where I should go and where I should thrive. And then when I visited, I love the campus environment and everything. I just love the mountains. Um,

Scott Barnhardt: 14:52

And it's a big school. It's, it's a giant research center. The, yeah. I all, I mean there's so many reasons why University of Utah is such a great match specifically for you. I love that. I also love that there was a little space for the magic, you know, cuz sometimes it is, it is a little like Harry Potter sorting hat. It's it, and, and you want a little bit of that intuition. You want a little, you especially a student like you, Zoe, you would've been great just about any campus you would do well. But it is about finding those matches, um, for that moment in your life. Oh, so cool. So, You land at University of Utah, there you are. Salt Lake City. It is. If you haven't been, it's a stunning city. It's a stunning campus. I love that campus. so you get, and you start your BFA musical theater, you get that, you've found your BFA

Zoe Seare: 15:51

I got that BFA.

Scott Barnhardt: 15:53

there. You were dancing every day. And talk to me about the fact that by the end of that first year, you had decided to shift to theater teaching that they have a really unique BFA at University of Utah. Um, talk to me about that realization. What sort of shifted throughout that year and led you to this unique path?

Zoe Seare: 16:17

So at the end of my first semester there, I had started to realize that I didn't think that the Broadway hustle and Bustle was my life like as much as I had glorified it in my head. We had this talk with one of our teachers. And I just realized it wasn't for me. I just realized that that audition lifestyle just was not for me. And I was like, you know, I have always loved teaching. I have, I've worked at these summer camps, um, down near me, the Broadway Vista, and I had grown up with them and I had watched them do what they do, and they had always been like a part of me. And I was thinking, and I was like, you know, teaching, I think that I'll teach theater then. So we fast forward to the, to second semester. I'm still in the musical theater program because I was like, well, I'll just get my BFA in musical theater and then I'll get my credential, then I'll do a two year credential program. And I, as the year went on, I just found that I wasn't enjoying theater as much as I wanted to, and I was getting worried that. Like this was gonna ruin my love of theater, or my love of theater was gonna dissipate because I was very stressed. I felt a lot of competition. I was in a really rough place in my life mentally. And I started looking at dropping out completely and like going home, doing community, and figuring out where I would go next. And I remember going to my academic advisor in the theater department and like crying in her room, being like, I don't know where I'm supposed to go. I just feel like going home. And I explained to her what I was, you know, I love teaching, but theater is kind of weighing on me right now. And she said, have you ever heard of our teaching BFA? And to be honest, our teaching BFA is not highly like, Advertised. I had never heard about it. And so I started looking into it and just everything felt right. It has, uh, it's a four year degree with a certification and I student teach my entire senior year and I have like, it's only four years and I just thought that was so amazing and I had never seen it anywhere else at any other school. So I did the application, I wrote a two page paper about why teaching, why teaching, and I had an interview. I got called back in for an interview with the heads of the program. And then I got in and I switched my fall that following year. So the beginning of my sophomore year.

Scott Barnhardt: 19:13

Wow. And it was, it was, was it really as easy as that in, in the sense that, like once you had started the ball rolling, were there any issues with credits transferring? I mean, I know they're sort of housed under the same school, but like any other sort of logistic hurdles or, or even like culture hurdles by moving from one to the other.

Zoe Seare: 19:36

what I found at least is that any of those hurdles were positive for me because the first hurdle was obviously credits. But what's great is we have a lot of crossover with the M T P musical theater majors and the acting majors. We have to take a lot of their classes. So I already had a fair amount of credit and I don't have to take on any elective credit because anything else was all considered an elective. But that was the only real, and then the only issue came about when I had to look at my gen eds. Um, but the U is very directly linked with Salt Lake Community College, and they have a lot of online classes. So this summer I'm gonna take two of my gen eds there. It's cheaper. I get in-state tuition for the summer because they offer everyone in-state tuition and they immediately transfer. They're connected

Scott Barnhardt: 20:37

so there's no additional

Zoe Seare: 20:39

yeah, so there's no stress about any of those classes meeting a requirement. So that has been a weight lifted off my shoulders and I'm very much on track to graduate in

Scott Barnhardt: 20:52

four years. Yeah, in four years total.

Zoe Seare: 20:55

Four years total. Yes. And I think culturally it, that is a positive hurdle because I have met some of the most wonderful humans in my new program. And I, we get to teach together, we get to work together, we get to go to schools together and have practicums together, and it's just wonderful. I haven't felt this welcomed in a long time. It was just, it was, it's just a fantastic community

Scott Barnhardt: 21:22

Yeah. And it's, it's, I love that because it is about match. It's, it's always about match. It's finding those people who are, who are genuinely aligned with your, with your mission, your point of view. And it sounds like you've, you've really found that for yourself

Zoe Seare: 21:39

Yeah.

Scott Barnhardt: 21:39

and without the, the headache or fear or financial obligation of adding one or two years to your, to your time in undergraduate, um, which, Those, those, those resources could better be used either in graduate school or towards this transition to your professional life, which we'll, we'll, we'll get into trust.

Zoe Seare: 21:59

Yes, and I, I would like to say that I think a lot of the reason that I am still finishing in four years is because of who I am. Because I am, I worked myself a little bit too hard. I took 19 credits this semester, uh, and I also assistant directed and taught every day of the week. So, am I run down just a little bit, but I, I have really worked with my advisor and like been very organized and aggressive about getting these credits done so that I graduate on time.

Scott Barnhardt: 22:37

yeah, which is, I, I, I thank you for that clarification, because I do think. College is, can be a logistical nightmare, you know, when you're trying to get all the boxes checked. Um, especially for type A folk. Um, like I, I,

Zoe Seare: 22:57

Yeah.

Scott Barnhardt: 22:58

know,

Zoe Seare: 22:58

No. Yes, yes,

Scott Barnhardt: 23:00

C'S game, uh, I do think it, it, it can be a lot of work and a lot of energy to make sure you are covered. but I do like this idea of being able to be strategically aggressive I think cuz in the long run, you're, I can see it, I see it in your eyes. You are motivated in such a different way than you were a year ago. Uh, so putting in that extra work, putting the pedal to the metal, in this moment makes a lot of sense.

Zoe Seare: 23:33

Absolutely. Yeah.

Scott Barnhardt: 23:35

Good on ya! Um, I'm curious are, I know you're sort of in this landscape of, you know, literally teaching theater. Are there any parts of this concentration or classes that you've taken that just like light you up?

Zoe Seare: 23:50

Oh, yes, yes, yes. we, this semester I was able to take two practicum classes, which means that we go to the school and we observe a teacher, and then we also teach like, sort of like dipping the toe into the whole ordeal. And this semester we had a high school one and a elementary and middle class. So while the high school class was in fact at seven in the morning, And the high school was located 30 minutes away from my house. It was such a joy and really made me realize how much I love teaching high school to just work with those kids. And especially at the high school that we went to Granger High, they have a mix of different people from different backgrounds, from different homes who are coming in and maybe are stressed outside of the classroom, but they're in the theater space. And to just see them take risks and to try these new things and just wholeheartedly be themselves was just so inspirational and wonderful, and really ignited my love of high school teaching and is definitely one of the main reasons I'm pursuing high school teaching.

Scott Barnhardt: 25:09

Yeah.

Zoe Seare: 25:10

So I would say those two classes have just, they've just brought so much joy this semester and. even though I'm not, I don't consider myself an elementary teacher. I bow down to those who can because I seriously respect them so much. But those kids, to just see them play and love it and enjoy every second of it, it just, it's just wonderful and it makes me feel like I'm so glad I'm a teacher. I'm so glad that I am gonna help mold a new generation of kids.

Scott Barnhardt: 25:42

I love this. We need more. We need

Zoe Seare: 25:44

We do. We need more teachers who care about what they're doing and want to be there.

Scott Barnhardt: 25:50

Yeah. Yeah. Uh, not just through obligation, but through genuine passion skill and, and to what you're doing. Training, cuz it does require a breadth of knowledge to, to guide And you're getting it. Oh. This is so exciting. This is, this is genuinely thrilling from a fellow, theater teacher nerd. I'm curious, given that you, you lived in two different programs over the last two years of b FFA and musical theater, a BFA and theater teaching. What, what are you, what would you name as sort of like the biggest differences, like vibe wise? who thrives in a BFA of musical theater in your point of view, and who thrives as a BFA theater teacher?

Zoe Seare: 26:35

I think that I wouldn't necessarily put like direct qualities into either. I think that if you are more, if you are drawn to teaching at all, I highly recommend pursuing an education degree because we need more teachers that care about it and enjoy what they're doing, and I think that's what's very different. Coming from the B F A musical theater to the theater teaching is that everyone in the theater teaching program, was a performer, grew up doing theater, grew up performing, even some of them transferred from other schools who had performance programs in college. But said, I love this and I wanna share it, and I wanna share it to new generations of kids. And then decided to go into teaching. Most of my peers made the active decision to become teachers, which is just very wonderful. And it reminds me that we are all such, like, I am so shocked at how talented my class is of teachers, but because we all came from theater backgrounds and decided I want to teach and that's what I want to do, and I think that has had such a positive, Vibe and environment I have been so much happier since I made the switch mentally and emotionally because I think for me, I just couldn't handle that competition. It was very stressful for me. It brought me a lot of anxiety, a lot of detrimental thoughts that would sled my brain. Just not feeling good enough, not feeling strong enough.

Scott Barnhardt: 28:13

Hmm.

Zoe Seare: 28:14

Well, I know that's not true. It was very hard for me and I had, I think that now that I've taken a step back and I can love performing more as an extracurricular and as a way to fuel my teaching studies, it has become so much less stress, and I don't find myself beating myself up because I didn't hit the high C the other day.

Scott Barnhardt: 28:39

Ugh. I love that. And to me, that, that speaks to, I talk a lot about the drivers for creatives. There are things that drive us towards creativity. And they're different for everyone. Some people, their driver is to get paid. Some people, their driver is to become famous. Some people, their driver is to, you know, just technically become the best that they can be. And for some people, the, the driver can be, and I would put in your case, these transferrable skills. This ability to, to take what you've learned and loved about performing and apply them to education. Apply them to communication, apply them to, you know, bettering the next generation. I would even sprinkle a little activism in there as well, like, and when you learn that your driver is different, Than maybe some of your peers, like putting yourself in a different, um, community can make a lot of sense. But I, I feel you on that compar and despair piece. I feel you on the why is this thing that I love bringing me so much angst and I find it's usually the drivers are somehow imbalanced. Yeah. Yeah. That makes so much sense to me, Zoe. and I know you're not alone in that feeling. and I hope you're not alone in your discovery, you know, like the discovery that you've made because I can see it. Your confidence is like tenfold.

Zoe Seare: 30:06

It's, yeah. Another thing I go back to junior year, me, like she did not have that. And I, I, I also think that time, time is such a healer and time can bring about so many good things and positive changes. And if you accept the positive change, it can do so much for your life instead of fighting against change because you know you don't like it. Which does anyone like change sometimes? No. But

Scott Barnhardt: 30:35

It's the one thing

Zoe Seare: 30:35

it's really awesome. Sometimes it's a really good choice to make and a really good thing to happen for you.

Scott Barnhardt: 30:42

yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Because we don't know what we don't know. And that's what I love. When I think back to the conversations I had with 17 year old Zoe. You know, I, I, I love the stubbornness of that 17 year old Zoe. I do, I, I genuinely do because, uh, I, I think it is part of that stubbornness that actually leads you to where you are right now. You have, and you have to learn it on your own accord. And that's where truly, I do believe college is such a unique landscape for that growth. It's, for me, it's not about training, it's not, it is actually about that, that human self-discovery piece.

Zoe Seare: 31:25

Yes, I absolutely agree with that.

Scott Barnhardt: 31:27

Okay. I'm gonna, I wanna, I wanna ask an agent of chaos question.

Zoe Seare: 31:31

okay.

Scott Barnhardt: 31:32

Agent of chaos is the idea of, okay, musical theater, bfa teaching Theater, bfa, university of Utah, are off the table. Let's say all three of those things are off the table. Are there any other subjects, topics, schools, places you would've wanted to go to college, um, or would've wanted to study? And this should be like a little bit mischievous, like, Hmm, I'll become a gamer.

Zoe Seare: 32:05

It's a Twitch streamer. No, no, not a Twitch streamer. Um, I have two things, and one of these things I might get to at some point in my life, because it's been very, very awesome for me is one, I have always been interested in psychology. I get to take psychology through my program because it's important to learn about development. I just took a lifespan in human development class and I have always enjoyed psychology. I think it's so interesting the way the human brain works and the way that we interact with one another and how we grow as people is just so interesting to me. So I, when I was contemplating things, I thought about switching to psychology. Um, so I think I would probably study that. I think that I would reapply to uc, Irvine, not just for personal reasons, but also because they have a fantastic psychology program and all of their sciences like that are just so well renowned and. They have amazing professors. So I think that is like path number one that I would do if University of Utah was not there. Path number two is I would go to cosmetology school. I love makeup. Makeup is my favorite. If you go to my website, you can see some of my makeup designs, but I, makeup is my favorite thing to do. My favorite pastime, I love doing makeup. I do everyone, all of my friends makeup I've taken, I took a makeup class at OCSA and then we also took a makeup class here that was a requirement for my major last semester. And it, I just love it so much. I would totally be a professional makeup artist like any day.

Scott Barnhardt: 33:54

Oh my God, yes.

Zoe Seare: 33:55

So

Scott Barnhardt: 33:56

all of that I love,

Zoe Seare: 33:58

who knows? Maybe I'll study them in the future just cause

Scott Barnhardt: 34:02

yeah, why not?

Zoe Seare: 34:04

you can always learn new things and always go back to school and do different things.

Scott Barnhardt: 34:08

and that's what I, I, I ask that question because I'm always just curious what are the other things? Because I think we often feel like, you know, we get into really narrow bands and I love this idea of like, oh yeah, maybe you're the theater teacher who also does cosmetology on the side, who also is just like a really smart psychologist. Like I, why not?

Zoe Seare: 34:29

Why not?

Scott Barnhardt: 34:30

I love it. So you talked a little bit about your list. Um, you applied to a lot of BFA and musical theater programs, about 14 schools, four yeses, a few wait lists, and then a fair amount of, um, of rejections of nos, which, you know, again, I always say, especially with, with particular schools, like welcome to a very elite list of humans who have also been rejected from said university. Talk to me, how did you handle either, did you handle well or handle poorly? Um, how did you handle the rejections and what did you do either with your family or with support systems towards processing that?

Zoe Seare: 35:13

Um, to be honest, with my past self, I handled it terribly. I was not good with rejection at all, and I think because I placed a lot of my personal value on those rejections is why it hurt so bad for me because I within that state where you know it's puberty and you think that you're weird and you feel like you're not good enough and you feel like all these different things. And so when a huge university comes back and says, we don't want you, that like crushed me in my senior year. And I think hearing a lot of people get in and then I didn't. Was also very hard for me because I, on the one hand, I'm a very, I try to be a very positive person and I wanna lift up that person and be like, congrats, you're amazing. I'm so glad. But inside I was like, why did I not get it? That sucks. And so I didn't handle it very well. And I think the thing that got me through that rejection was that last performing with the Pros with David Burnham. That was the only thing that got me through because I was playing the Baker's Wife for our little skit that our little show that we were doing. And I would get a rejection like every day. And I'd come to rehearsal on Zoom and I would visibly look terrible. And I remember we were working one-on-one and I just burst into tears at some point because I was just really. Sad and I was holding a lot inside me and I like missed a note and it just like sent me over the edge and he just kept reminding me every single time you are talented, you are going to go places and you can do what, whatever you want to do, it's okay that you didn't go there cuz you'll go somewhere else. And he was such a positive human in my life at that time, and I needed him at that point in my life. So I would say that a lot of my growth in receiving rejection has come from that and looking at and realizing that it is not my worst. Just because they said no does not mean that I am not a singer, that I am not a performer because I know I am a performer. I work really hard. I can do this, I can do that. that just wasn't the place for me, and that just wasn't my path and that wasn't my journey. And I can look back on that now and say that, which is great, and this is what I like. I've had a couple, um, current OCSA students reach out and ask me about how I got through it. And that is all I have to say is it is if, if it is not right for you, then it will show itself. It may not be your path, it may not be your journey, and that's okay. You will find a new journey and it'll be just as awesome, if not even more awesome for you.

Scott Barnhardt: 38:19

Yep. I, and, and that is, that is it. And I, we acknowledge that it's painful. Like we acknowledge that a rejection

Zoe Seare: 38:26

It sucks.

Scott Barnhardt: 38:27

it hurts. It's never fun. No one enjoy, no one is like looking forward to that thin envelope. Right, right. No

Zoe Seare: 38:34

hope I, I hope they say no to me.

Scott Barnhardt: 38:37

It, it's, it's. We understand we, but our jobs as creatives is to want the thing, reach for it. And if it doesn't happen, well then what is the next step? Um, it's data. I always, I try to like depersonalize it as best we can. It's like when you get that rejection, it's simply a school you're not going to next year, nothing more, nothing less. It is just not the place you're going to. But I, and, and I understand that it can be a little Pollyanna, like people don't want to really hear that because they do want to put their worth into, or, or really get validation. But

Zoe Seare: 39:15

that decision.

Scott Barnhardt: 39:16

that decision, from a yes, from a school can be some form of validation. But it's a really scary place to try to get validation from because schools are institutions, schools are businesses. They're, they're not after your validation or your self-growth, only you are. So those decisions rarely have anything to do with talent. there's no reason why you couldn't go to any one of those schools. It's just the way the cookie crumbled. It wasn't your path. So I, I really appreciate that, that honest answer. And the fact that you've had support along the way. And shout out to David Burnham

Zoe Seare: 39:53

No doubt.

Scott Barnhardt: 39:54

creating an open space and a rehearsal for especially students at that age and during that moment to be able to share freely without fear.

Zoe Seare: 40:04

Absolutely

Scott Barnhardt: 40:05

I mean, I don't love the rejections, but I love, I love being able to process them and to see where you're at right now. Yeah. All right. I talk a lot about finances. College can be expensive. College is a, can be a giant investment. And I'm asking everyone the same question where you're at right now. I know you're in the middle of it, but do you think, did you overspend, underspend, or get it just right by going to University of Utah? Financially speaking?

Zoe Seare: 40:34

I think that I got it just right. I think that what's been very wonderful is I received the WUE, which is the Western Undergraduate Exchange, and it's a, it's a tuition discount. Um, because I maintain a certain G P A I get a hun, I only have to pay 150% of in-state tuition. So it's like just a little bit over the in-state tuition, which is amazing because out-of-state tuition is almost like double or more in-state tuition. So, When we got that,

Scott Barnhardt: 41:10

you are presumably, you're getting just a little over in state tuition for

Zoe Seare: 41:15

Yes,

Scott Barnhardt: 41:16

as though you're a Utah resident.

Zoe Seare: 41:18

yes. Because I have the WUE and I have a, uh, I have an alumni scholarship because both my parents went to the U. So I, it's like it's a little bit more than if I were to become a resident of Utah. And I know a lot of people here do go through the residency process because you can live here for one whole year and you become a resident as long as you don't leave for longer than, I don't know how many consecutive days, but a certain amount of time you can become a resident. So a lot of people who don't get the WUE do that as a route, but. I am just so grateful that I got that tuition discount because it has just been amazing and I don't have any loans at the moment, um, which has just been wonderful for me.

Scott Barnhardt: 42:10

on. Because we do a party every time this

Zoe Seare: 42:12

We have to do a party

Scott Barnhardt: 42:13

means as of right now, you're walking away from college, undergraduate without student debt. Am I hearing that

Zoe Seare: 42:22

As of right now. Yes. So,

Scott Barnhardt: 42:24

doing a

Zoe Seare: 42:24

woo,

Scott Barnhardt: 42:25

party. We're doing a party. Um, it is a, it is a recurring theme. It's something I'm trying to celebrate and highlight because as an artist, as a teaching artist, having financial freedom means you get to choose what it is you want to do next. So I,

Zoe Seare: 42:44

And I, I am very grateful and thankful to, because. The main reason I don't have loans is my parents have just been very gracious and have wanted to pay my way through college. So I think that's something that I am, can acknowledge and I am very, very thankful and grateful for.

Scott Barnhardt: 43:03

Yes, absolutely. And, and naming that gratitude, you know, because not everyone has that same level of support. So, um, rock onto the Sears as And WUE, if you don't know about WUE the Western Undergraduate Exchange is a great place for research. It basically lists a ton of schools from Colorado to Hawaii and Alaska all the way west. And it shows you schools that are all state schools that accept this program. And if you can get the WUE grant, ooh, it's, it, it's just a great place for research. It's a great place to see school options that maybe aren't on your radar.

Zoe Seare: 43:44

It's great. It's fantastic.

Scott Barnhardt: 43:46

It's incredible. Zoe, I'd love to ask you, I I, I'm really intrigued that you've moved towards theater teaching and, and I'm curious, the obvious answer is like, oh, I'm gonna go teach theater. But I'm curious, what sort of unique industry pathways do you see for yourself moving forward? Like, you know, and, and tell us a little more about the licensing and the certification, both at Utah or say if you were to come back to California, like what are sort of your plans to move forward with this degree and or, you know, tell us about your cosmetology dream. Like what sort of industry pathways do you see for yourself as your unique creative self?

Zoe Seare: 44:29

As someone who wants to create a teaching environment that is open to anyone of all backgrounds, of all experiences, and especially of all sexualities and who wants to have a open and safe space for that, Utah is not the place for me to teach. It's not, it has the program. It's a fantastic program. So I am not going to remain here after my four years unless something changes, but I don't want to teach here. So my plan would be to go somewhere else where that is, I don't know. And I will learn when I'm a senior and know who's still in my life and where I'm thinking about moving and what my thoughts are. But as for licensure, I basically apply for student teaching next semester. It's like due at the beginning of my spring semester next year. And I get fit with a teacher. I do my student teaching my first semester of senior year looks, it's part-time. And then my second semester is all full-time. So yeah, it's, it's crazy amount of work, but it's so wonderful that I'm doing that and getting it done in four years. And then I get my certification from evaluation in student teaching. If I were to move elsewhere, there are two options. So one, if the state doesn't accept my Utah licensure, then I have to take their exam. But I have a year or two years to do it. So I get a temporary licensure and I can teach. But in those two years, I have to go take their test and pass to get that like a California licensure. If the state accepts my Utah licensure, then they would just take all my credits and transfer it and I'd get their licensure. So I know for California, I do have to take the test. Um, but what's nice about Utah is they're kind of, they're getting rid of the Praxis exam, um, is what I've heard. So I will only have to take that exam once if I go elsewhere, to which I will. Um, so I'm planning, uh, I'd really like to teach high school and, and or teach in a community theater setting, but hopefully, and, and I am also looking to go to grad school because if you get your masters, you get paid more as a teacher. And I also, there are different things I wanna study. Um, I really wanna get my master's in directing and I know there's a lot of really good masters of directing programs like California. So that might be where I go. I'm not sure if I'm gonna do that directly after undergrad or if I'm gonna teach for a little bit and then do it. But we'll see. I'm kind of at this point in my life where I have different things that I wanna do when I graduate, but I don't know in what order. And that's okay. And I'm really like okay with that because it just depends on where I am in life and what I'm doing, and. All of the things. So those are definitely my main things that I want to accomplish with myself in the future.

Scott Barnhardt: 47:54

I love it, and I love that you're giving yourself, again, this is actually a little different than 17 year

Zoe Seare: 47:59

Yeah. Oh, oh yeah,

Scott Barnhardt: 48:01

this is a little different than 17 year old Zoe. Um, I, I just love that you're giving yourself some space to find out that you don't need to know right now, and it doesn't even help you to know right now outside of having some macro ideas of what's, what's out there for you.

Zoe Seare: 48:19

absolutely. Yeah. I had, so I had like, uh, my entire life planned out in high school and it is not the same, let me tell you, it is not the same. Now,

Scott Barnhardt: 48:29

What do you think is the biggest difference from that list to your list right now? Like what was on that list that you're now going, like really that needed to happen at 22?

Zoe Seare: 48:40

I was gonna go to the east coast for college.

Scott Barnhardt: 48:42

Yep.

Zoe Seare: 48:43

And I was gonna do like stuff there to get my equity card before I left college. Like, okay,

Scott Barnhardt: 48:48

So you were a certain like equity card, pre

Zoe Seare: 48:51

I was gonna go to Broadway, I was gonna perform there for a while and then I was gonna teach, and then I was gonna go back to school and get my teaching certificate and then teach. None of that is happening. I am now teaching for my life.

Scott Barnhardt: 49:08

Yeah.

Zoe Seare: 49:09

And that's the biggest difference. I just thought, I was like, I'm gonna be on Broadway and that's gonna be my life. I'm gonna live in New York. And then I was like, that's not my environment at all. I wanna teach and that's what I wanna do.

Scott Barnhardt: 49:25

Can I ask a follow up question? The part of the world that you are right now geographically and the mountains are so beautiful in Salt Lake City. How has nature sort of changed you in this path? Like is is being in and around nature, is that, has that changed anything? Has that been part of the shift?

Zoe Seare: 49:45

Yeah, I think growing up, because I, I lived really close to the beach, so I was always a nature person in the sense that I would live at the beach. But now it's sort of, it's a lot different Now I'm going on hikes or I am going to walk in a park and look at all the beautiful mountains, and I wish I could say that I've been skiing, I should say, that I've been skiing. I have not, um, I'm a little bit scared of it, but.

Scott Barnhardt: 50:13

I feel like all the, the dancer theater folk, I was always trained, like I was raised to fear skiing and so I, all my adult life, I've never been skiing, never, not once,

Zoe Seare: 50:24

feel like I need to go,

Scott Barnhardt: 50:25

I'm scared of, I'm scared for my knees, but I feel like I've missed out on something pretty special.

Zoe Seare: 50:31

so, but I think that I've really enjoyed the switch in a different type of nature and a different type of climate. As much as, you know, this winter, if you've heard anything about it, has been terrible for us. Um, was not a fan of the 15 inches of snow that happened at the beginning of this month,

Scott Barnhardt: 50:49

pummeled with snow.

Zoe Seare: 50:50

But I love in. The fall here, there's so many trees. It is the most beautiful and I always drive up this little like canyon up the mountain and you can just see all of the trees and they're all orange and it's just so beautiful. And I think that's very different from the beach with the palm trees and the stuff that I grew up with. So I've really enjoyed the switch. I wanted to go to a place with seasons. I definitely got those seasons smacked in my face, but I enjoy it. It's a different feel and I'm happy that I can say that I've lived here and I will have lived here for four years.

Scott Barnhardt: 51:30

Yeah, I love it. I love it. Love it, love it. All right, we're, we're getting close to sort of the, the wrapping point. Uh, and I, I ask everyone this cuz I just, I love the, the reflective nature of this question. What's the one thing you wish you had understood about the college application process before you started? So in other words, what advice would you give to 17 year old Zoe now,

Zoe Seare: 51:57

I have a lot of advice I would give myself.

Scott Barnhardt: 52:00

well, what's the one that's like, what's the one that's hottest to the touch Or what's the one that's, that's just like daring to come out?

Zoe Seare: 52:10

Stop comparing yourself to others. That is the biggest thing that I would tell myself, and that encompasses a lot,

Scott Barnhardt: 52:20

Yeah.

Zoe Seare: 52:21

but just. You know, 17 year old Zoe was very, very wrapped up in what other people thought of her and how talented that other people thought she was. And in the reality, just because someone else got into Michigan and you didn't, that is not, that does not mean that you're a terrible performer and you aren't gonna do anything with your life. It does not, you are capable of so much. And I think at that age, we go through so much rejection and comparison at a time in our lives when we are comparing ourselves to others frequently. And just looking at myself at that age and being like, it's, it's all gonna be fine. It, it's all going to be okay. And you are not any less. Talented. You aren't any less smart. You aren't any less worthy just because you didn't get into a school. And that, that's the, that's the thing. I wish I could go back and say, because I spent so many hours just feeling horrible and comparing myself and crying and, you know, that's time, you know, that was needed for me then, but it, everything worked out and I could not be more happy with the way that my life has panned out since then. And I think just telling her that you're, you're gonna do great. You are great currently, and it's okay.

Scott Barnhardt: 53:52

Oh, Zoe, I feel like that is, that is everything that this podcast, and at least my work with students is, is trying to underline. Because while, yes, we do have to find ways to process the losses and process the rejections and process the comparison, right? That is, that is part of life. but what you're describing is all of that unnecessary tumult, all of that undue torment that we put on ourselves and realizing that That often that energy is better placed elsewhere. and sometimes we can't figure that out till two, three years later. But even just hearing it now, like there are so many ways to, and I think this is great for parents, teachers, counselors, people who are supporting young people as they're going through this often in their mindset, it is do or die. It is Broadway or bust. It is BFA or bust. And our job is to continually and gently remind them that it's not necessarily true, it is our job to remind them that it is not true. That their job as a young creative is to take the next right step, is to build resilience, adaptability, persistence. Those are the skills of a creative, it's not the degree.

Zoe Seare: 55:19

And to take that right step that's for you specifically and no one else because I think that there sometimes we get pressure that, oh, well, so-and-so is, is, is going to a giant. University. So I need to, it's like you, it's, it's your path. If you believe, you know, I'm gonna take two years a community and then go to college, that's a great path for you. If you think I'm gonna go to college undecided and figure it out there, that's a good path for you. There are so many different paths and I don't think that any of them are the right one. You can go wherever you need to go.

Scott Barnhardt: 55:57

and as you learned, and this is where it's also fluid, you also will get to the perfect program and realize, oh, I can move to that program, or I can go get a master's degree somewhere else. Or I can go straight to industry or like, again, there are so,

Zoe Seare: 56:15

So many

Scott Barnhardt: 56:15

many paths.

Zoe Seare: 56:16

paths.

Scott Barnhardt: 56:18

Oh zoe, this was such a lovely conversation. I am, Just beyond proud of you and the work you're doing, both for yourself as your own creative artist, but also the work on behalf of all of those students who are gonna be lucky to call you their teacher. Oh my gosh. Like that your, your sense of passion, your sense of mission and your why is so clear. And with that I can only see nothing but good things, um, in front of you. And just proud of you finding who you are outside of the comparison of others cuz it's, it's utterly clear. I can even through the zoom screen, I can see it from a mile away and it's really heartening to see,

Zoe Seare: 57:10

Thank you.

Scott Barnhardt: 57:11

um, if people wanted to get ahold of you and see what you're up to, how might they do so?

Zoe Seare: 57:16

So right now the only public thing that I have out is my website. So you can check out my website you can also just see what I'm up to see. Uh, my resumes you can look at on all of my lesson plans are on there. So it's just a place that I like to share what I'm working on.

Scott Barnhardt: 57:34

Love it, and I'll make sure to include that link in the episode description. Zoe, I can't thank you enough for taking some time out with me today. That's another interview episode of the Creative College Journey podcast. We hope this episode with Zoe Seare was beneficial to you. And want to thank you for taking time outta your busy day to listen. If you're in need of some encouragement, guidance, and inspiration for your college journey and would like to work with me, don't hesitate to head to our website, www.creativecollegejourney.com to schedule a free, no obligation, one hour consultation to find out the many ways the creative College journey can help you on your path. You can also find Scott Barnhardt on Instagram at Scott Barnhardt. you enjoy the show, please rate and review us on Apple Podcast. It really does help other people find us. And be sure to come back in the coming weeks for more discussions about creative college admissions, lowering the temperature on the process and the many industry pathways and transferable skills that a creative education and life can offer. Don't forget, it's not where you go to school, but how you go to school that counts. Thank you.

Zoe Seare: 58:43

I love that last line. It is how you go to school. That counts. I just think that's so awesome.

Scott Barnhardt: 58:49

It is. It really is. It's how you learn, not where you learn.