Welcome to the Creative College Journey podcast, the place to help raise awareness on the many pathways to a creative life and education and how college might be a part of it, because it's not where you go to school, but how you go to school that counts. Hosted by professional, creative, and college expert Scott Barnhardt, who is chatting with a variety of guests who have some amazing lived experiences from different universities, majors and creative industry interests. And we hope by hearing their stories, it might help give you some inspiration to find your own Creative College Journey.

Oh my goodness. You guys today, we have a really exciting and unique conversation coming your way. This is someone who has"defied gravity" and expectations in many ways beyond just belting gs on the stage of the Gershwin Theater. I am thrilled to welcome Carla Stickler to the podcast. Carla is a web and software engineer at Spotify, but also has over a decade of experience performing in musicals under her belt. She is perhaps best known for her performance as Elphaba and Wicked on Broadway. See what I did there with the intro, including a news making return to the role in 2022. After a seven year hiatus from performing the role, she single-handedly kept wicked open in this new Covid present era. Her story and her advocacy ideas about artists in STEM have been featured in Marie Claire, NPR, Huffington Post, vulture, Inside Edition, Nightline, and many, many more As an actor, Carla toured the nation with Mamma Mia, covering the role of Sophie and toured Asia, playing Liesl in the Sound of Music. She has also performed her own cabaret as a guest entertainer on board Norwegian and Disney Cruise lines. Carla has a BFA acting from NYU Tisch and a master's degree in theater education from NYU Steinhardt, and she was also a voice teacher in New York City on the faculties of Marymount Manhattan College and Malloy College Cap 21. Special to my heart. Carla mentors high school students through their college application journey through iMentor in Chicago, as well as helping artists who are looking to make a career change into the tech industry through the organization. Artists Who Code Carla is passionate about reframing the narrative of the starving artist and encourages young artists to take agency over their careers by developing skills that can provide them with financial stability alongside their artistic journey. And with that, please welcome to the podcast Carla Stickler.

Hi. Thank you so much for having me.

Oh my gosh, Carla, I'm so happy thank you for being here. just quick check-in. How are you doing? I wanna see where are you at, how are you doing? And like, actually, how are you today?

Today? I'm good. Yeah, I had a good day. I just started a new job a few weeks ago and today I actually did some work and merged some stuff into the website and it's live and it's very exciting

completion. Love it.

Yes.

Um, with that, maybe you can give us a little insight about your position as a web engineer for Spotify. We all use Spotify all the time. What, what do you do there?

Sure. Yeah. So I'm a web engineer, um, which basically is, I, I am another word for a front end engineer. So I work on the front end of the website. So I work on all the things that you see and the way the things that you interact with on the website, as opposed to a backend engineer, which is somebody who would work on, you know, the data and all the, the, the stuff that sounds more complicated about software I'm hearing, not that what I do isn't complicated, but I, I can make a button look pretty. So I do stuff like that. Um, I, I specifically work for their podcast creator side of things,

Amazing.

too much about it, but I, I make magic with, for podcast creators like yourself.

Yes. Thank you for helping, making it possible, cuz I don't know that I could, so I'm glad you're out there fighting the good fight.

Yeah. They're doing great things over there.

Um, I'd love to, to ask you, cuz I, I l I love this right left brain conversation that you bring to the table. How do you, how do you describe yourself creatively? Like how do you identify creatively and maybe specifically how does creativity influence your work as a web and software engineer? And then maybe how did your engineering brain influence your performance work?

That's such a good question. Um, you know, it's funny, I, I think engineering for me is very creative, in particular because I do work on the front end. I, I, I find front end work to be very aesthetically pleasing. and I, so while I was performer for a long time, I'm, I'm also a visual artist. I, I throw pottery and I have been doing that since high school. And so, making things aesthetically pleasing, I guess is the only way I can say it, you know, is very, is something I really enjoy about pottery, and so it's also something I really enjoy about engineering. and I like, I like that engineering is kind of just like a series of puzzles to figure out. And so I think about like, the way for me, um, the cre the creativity kind of comes in, in the same way. Um, where I'm building things, I'm building something from scratch, something that didn't exist before in the same way I do with Clay, and in the same way I do with my characters as an actor. You know, like I, there's a lot of creativity when you're, when you're building a role, you're basically creating this role from nothing out of a bunch of texts on a page. And so I think about the, the same thing as kind of at play with what I do, right? I get, I get a criteria like, Hey, I want you to build this thing. Here's what it needs to be able to do. And then I have, using the tools that I have, I get to then make it happen and, and create this thing that where there was no thing before.

exactly. And that's where I, I love this idea, like these STEM fields still, especially engineering, I mean of any, they require that creative thinking that outside the box, thinking that the problem solving point of view, which is, ah, it's so cool. It's a really, really cool

Like improv, right? You learn the rules so you can break'em, right? You learn the rules of the game. You learn, you learn the rules of, of how your tools work. And then, and then you get to play once you know what they are. You know, with music too, you learn the notes, you learn, you learn the structure, you learn music theory, you understand how chords work, and then you break it all and you do whatever you want.

make it your own or make it, you know, unique, oh, I love, I love this. I love this. So this is the Creative College Journey podcast, and we're really talking to a lot of families who are going through the application process and the how overwhelming it can be. And we're trying to like streamline this. So I would actually love to take us back to junior year high school, Carla. I know you actually started as a vocal major, like a classical voice major at CCM. I'm just curious, in that junior year, what was going through your brain? Do you remember what you were thinking about, how you were approaching, um, that sort of major and applying to schools? Like, give us a little insight about where you were at at that age.

What's funny is I don't think I really even started thinking about college until the beginning of my senior year. I knew I wanted to go to school for performing, and I don't think my junior year I was quite specific on, I hadn't quite narrowed down if I wanted to be an actor or if I wanted to be a singer, like what I really wanted to focus on.

Sure

I know a lot of. A lot of people's career, college journeys do start their junior year. But for me, I was still kind of like, I think if you'd asked me junior year, I'd be like, I'm gonna go to Juilliard, or I'm gonna go to the Har School of Music. I had no idea what I wanted to do. Um, and I was really fortunate that I spent my summers up at Interlochen, arts camp. And yeah, I was, it was, it was magical. But I was also that kid when I would go to summer camp where I would do a million different majors. So like one summer I was a musical theater major. One summer I was a general arts major and I took pottery and photography and painting and did the operetta. Like it was a really weird summer. Um, and I just did like a million eclectic things. Uh, and then the summer between my junior year and my senior year, I was a musical theater major. And while I was there, I decided to actually stay at Interlochen my senior year of high school. So I had been at public school for the first three years, and then I, I went and stayed there, and that was the summer where I was like, I did musical theater, but I kind of made this decision that I wanted to be an opera singer. My grandmother had been an opera singer, and so for me, I was like, you know, if I'm gonna choose one or the other, I feel really confident about myself as a singer. You know, I, at the time, I didn't feel very confident about myself as an actor. And I don't know if I ever really, really felt very confident in myself as an actor even now. But, um, at that time I was like, the thing I'm good at is voice. And so I chose to do a vocal major up at Interlochen and a Pottery Minor. my choir director was always like, what do you do? Why do you show up in choir? Covered in clay?

Uh, we see a running theme in your entire life, clearly.

I did too many things. So, you know, I, I enjoyed voice that year and I, I, the thing that Interlochen did very well is they really hit the ground running with getting you prepared for college auditions. So, I mean, I wanna say almost like 60% of the academy, is made up of seniors. Most kids just go for their senior year. So a lot of that year is really spent working on auditions with your voice teacher or whoever you're working with and, and getting college ready, um, and then planning those college trips so you can go and audition and get all of that going. so, yeah, I, it was, I wasn't sure. I don't, you know, I kept, I, I'm very last minute kind of person. Once I make a decision, everything happens very quickly.

Yeah. Well, and I think that's a great example of like, I, I think often, especially in, in today's world, we try to like plan it out so far ahead and we don't leave room for the magic of like, discovering your senior year. Like there's always room for this to change. There's always room to make another decision. And, and finding ways to feel good about your intuition as you're moving forward.

absolutely. And it can always change,

it can always change and I mean, again, you are a perfect example of that in so many, uh, avenues of your life, which, we'll, we'll talk more about now. Talk to us about, like this, I, I, reading your story and, and, and reading up on you. feel like you had the, the like nightmare scenario for a lot of our students. This idea of, um, and correct me if I'm wrong, there was a vocal injury your freshman year and you left CCM had a period of time where you were sort of in between schools and then chose to return to nyu. Literally, if I describe that to students that are going through the process, that is like the worst case scenario.

You know what it is? I am grateful for it Now as an adult, cuz it taught me a lot about myself. It taught me a lot about my own personal strength and it taught me a lot about how I can pivot if I need to pivot. Um, but the only thing I wish I could go back and change about it is man, oh man, I wish I had a therapist during the whole thing. Cause I'm like now like, oh, I'm such an advocate for therapy. Like, I think everybody should have a therapist. It's just good to talk to somebody other than like your friends or your partner or whoever, but just not having anybody to talk to through that. Because as a freshman in college, I had, I ended up having a cyst on my vocal cord and so I went and flew to New York and had surgery over Christmas break. And when I came back for the rest of the year, I was struggling so much to sing and it was just, it was, it was just like that thing where I thought I knew everything. I thought I knew exactly what I wanted to do with the rest of my life. And all of a sudden this kind of was just like the first wall that I hit of being like, just kidding. Maybe not.

PS maybe not.

Maybe you don't have everything figured out at 18. Um, yeah, and it was really, I think at that time it was really traumatic because it was the first time I really. Had to kind of grapple with, oh, I just made a really big decision and maybe it was the wrong one. Or maybe it's not the right one for me where I am right now. And, um, I tried, while I was there, I tried to like study with like the jazz, one of the jazz teachers. And so I learned a little bit about jazz and, but I was just so distraught. Like I couldn't, I, I just knew I wasn't gonna be able to be a Coloratura soprano anymore. And I just could not figure out what that meant for myself. And I had to like do my jury at the end of my freshman year, and it did not go well. I also wore like a five inch heels, which like girls, ladies out there wearing five or anybody out there don't wear five inch heels. If you're like nervous and you have to get up and sing in front of a lot of people, it's a bad idea.

do yourself a favor.

Don't do it.

be grounded. Be grounded in the floor.

Stiletto. Oh, it was so ugly. Anyway, but you know, I just, I didn't do well and I remember being like, this is not right. Like, I, I don't know what to do. Um, and so I just, I like didn't go back. I just stayed home for a semester and I worked at a deli and I took an acting class and, you know, I make, like I said before, I make decisions very quickly. So I was in this acting class and I was like, oh, this is it. If I'm not gonna be a singer, I'm gonna be an actor because like, I'm still a performer. And, and you know, the thing that I don't feel very strong at is acting, but maybe I can be really good at acting. I was like, I get good, I get positive feedback when I do it, but I just am very scared of it. So I was like, that's it. I will, and this is a really dumb thing. And for anybody listening, don't do what I did. My boyfriend at the time went to nyu and so I was visiting and I was like, and throw all my eggs in one basket and just at nyu. Which I did. I was really fortunate I got in, but, um, just, I was such a, I was just so oblivious at that age. I had no idea what I was doing. I was just kind of like going off my gut instinct and trying to just like imagine what was the best thing for me in that moment. Cause I had no idea what I was doing

sure. And none of us do. None of us do in the, in those moments. But, and it is about actually having the bravery to like, throw some spaghetti at the wall and like, go for it. That's, that's so interesting. Following the boyfriend towards an institution. Carp blanche is always a, is a little bit of a red flag. Kids just, just putting it out there.

You know what though? It got me to New York. That's all I just needed to be in New York, I think is what I realized. So while it was not the best decision, it was a, it was still a good decision.

It worked out. It worked out. It worked out in spite. so with that, like, because I I, I, I can totally imagine that being a really isolating, experience. Did you have any, like, support systems that you were able to lean on and, and anyone that you were able to process that shift and that gap with?

you know, I'm not gonna lie, my sophomore and junior years of college were very difficult for me. Um, I self-medicated a lot, as you do in college often when you are feeling lost. I was really fortunate that my junior year. I had a teacher at, the Lee Stasburg Institute who kind of just like, I don't know, he like took me under his wing. He really, he thought, he thought I was a lovely actor and he had like a rock band. And he had asked me if I could sing once during like an acting exercise. And I like broke down crying. I was like, I don't sing anymore. and he made me like sing this like Ophelia monologue. It was very strange exercise, but he was like, I have a band. You should come sing in my band. And so like, I suddenly like started kind of like singing, like backup vocals in his band, my junior and senior year. And it was just like, it was this weird. It was such a weird thing to be doing cuz it was like singing like on the Lower East side and like in Greenwich Village at like all these like bars and stuff, and like singing music that was so different than what I had been singing. Um, and he like really encouraged me a lot during that time. So it was really nice to kind of like, have an adult sh like, see something in me then like that was encouraging. and that really kind of helped me get through some of that. But then like my senior year, I ended up having to, so before my senior I had to do a, a, some summer school. So I graduated on time and I took a, a musical theater, um, summer program at Cap 21 before when it was still affiliated with nyu.

Yeah.

And, uh, it was the only program I could get into. So I was like, oh, I don't wanna do musical theater cause I don't wanna sing. I don't wanna, I don't think I wanna like sing in a professional setting. It's too stressful. And, but it was the only thing I could do. So I got there and I, same thing would happen. I would start singing and I would cry and I just like couldn't get over it. And I found a voice teacher there who just like, was like, Carla, what are you doing? You can do this. And he just like, taught me how to belt and like really was so kind, like, would let me cry through half my lesson and then we'd get work done. And it was, it was just so nice that there were a few adults in my life who were able to kind of help me get through that by encouraging me to not like give up, like to give me the space to feel the things I was feeling. Um, but also then let me. You know, work me, like, work me, like really, like put me in a, in things that were uncomfortable, having me try things that I was terrified to do. You know, like belting. I remember the first time I ever belted and I, and it was like totally stress free. I just, again, I broke down. I cried a lot, but it was just like this magical feeling, you know?

Oh, I love that. I love that. Just the holding of space and the practicum. Cuz I feel like for that age, the fear factor can be absolutely crippling. It, it paralyzes us. And yet when we realize, when we get to the other side of it, it's, it is in fact tolerable. It may be uncomfortable, but it's totally tolerable. Um,

when I was teaching voice, I always like to tell my students, your job in the Voice studio is to make all the crazy sounds. Your job is to. And fail big and, and let your voice crack. Because once we, once we kind of have the space to experience all of that and play around, then we know what we're doing. But if you're, if you spend all that time trying always to sound perfect, it, it can be so hindering in your growth, right? And so to have space to just not be perfect for once was really, really nice for me.

Yeah. Yeah. I identify with so much of this. I, I love this. It's so interesting cuz you've used school in many ways for transitions and for expanding knowledge. Both getting your masters in theater education and then also, going to the Flatiron School to learn, software development and software engineering. I'm just sort of curious, did you find that educational spaces gave you confidence and gave you an ability to try the next thing? Like I, I know for me, I love that little bit of tester room in school that really would build sort of my confidence. You know, I didn't necessarily intend to become a, a playwright, but I got my master's in playwriting to help me learn more about theater and how to teach theater. So I'm curious if school plays some kind of confidence builder for you as you're moving into new realms.

you know what? I think it is? For me it was less necessarily about because I was never, I wasn't a bad student, but it took me a long time to learn how I learned. Um, and so when I went to grad school, that was a completely different experience than when I was an undergrad. And undergrad. I was very messy. I just had no idea what I was doing. I, I'm like a late age diagnosed ADHD person. And so like to, to know that like I. When I look back at my time in college and high school knowing that I had ADHD and that I didn't know what I was doing and like just I was a mess. So I, being in school at that age was not necessarily like the confidence boost. But

Sure.

um, as I got older, the thing that I like and appreciate about education is it gives you, it validates you

Mm.

a certain way, in certain, in certain spaces. So I remember once going to an audition and I sang something and the guy behind the, the table to like, or the music director or somebody was like, oh, Carla, can you do you have this x, y, z notes or whatever? And the other guy goes, oh yeah, yeah, she went to ccm. Of course she can do that. It's like, I didn't even get a chance to answer. Like they just saw that I had been at CCM for a year and like answered for me. And, and I do think. It's unfortunate, but having, having these resume, these like school names on your resume does go very far. That's not saying that everybody needs to go to a big top whatever performing arts school. Um, I think there are benefits to both, but for me, I knew having, having those things on my resume would open doors faster. It doesn't mean, like, I, I did a whole TikTok video on this recently only because some people, there was this thing going around about like, it doesn't matter where you went to school, everybody's, you know, when you're in the room, everybody's kind of gone everywhere. And I'm like, that is true. That is true to a point.

Correct.

There are doors that will open for you immediately after you graduate college. That would not open for you if you did not go to one of those schools. You will have to open them yourself if you don't go to one of those schools. So what that means when you get to New York, there's a lot more work that you have to do. To network, meet those people, you know, get in those rooms, get people to know you because they don't know you. Right? That's, those colleges are just for networking. And that was the thing I learned very early on. So when I knew that I wanted to leave Wicked and I needed, I needed a reason to leave, I was like, well, I love teaching. And I'd been teaching at Thespian festivals and the summers and stuff and I was like, well, I wanna be a teacher, but I, I don't wanna just be another actor who thinks they can teach. I wanna be an actor who's qualified to teach. So that's why I went and did this program. And it was, it was a short program. I didn't get an mfa cause I was like, I have the performance experience to teach on a college faculty. I just need a master's degree. So I did this program just so I could learn, you know, um, Just like techniques on how to work with people, you know, techniques on how to like, take my own personal bias out of the room. And, and so that was really important to me. and it also then made me feel validated when I started applying. I was like, well, I have this master's degree and I have all this other experience. And that gave me the confidence then to continue. And it's the same thing with software engineering. I could have gone and taught myself. And I, that's how I started. I was self-taught for a while and, but I was like, you know what? Going to the boot camp is gonna help me build my network. I'm gonna meet people. I'm not gonna be just a lone person who taught myself how to code. I will have this huge network of people that I met who are also learning to code, who will also end up working at software engineering companies who, you know, three, five years down the road when I'm looking for another job or whatever, I will know people all over the place because I took the time to build these. Relationships. And I think I've always kind of thought of it as like, you know, the relationship building that is, that is how we proceed through life. That's also the thing that I think is the most fun about life. I really like meeting people, so communication is my favorite. Like, I like meeting people and hearing their stories and I, and I, I also like helping people. So any chance that I can get from my network, if something opens up, I always go to them first. And so I, I think like that's the thing for me that college and school gave me. It, it's that opportunity to connect.

I, I, I love it. I love the way you just described all of that because it's interesting cuz you, even though, you know, two degrees from NYU distinctly different and literally in different schools, and the fact that you also went to a vocational bootcamp like No one of those institutions or degrees have gotten you a job, but they add up to the sum of knowing enough people, building confidence, skills, validation, being able to then go out into the world in some kind of, meaningful way where, you know, you're north, you know what, where you're heading, which I think is invaluable.

I mean, it's all about, if you think about it, life is kind of the series of like building your reputation and, and building out what you want people to remember. You, like how you want people to remember you and how you, as you move through your life. And, and so this kind of comes down to like. This thing of like, kindness and, and moving forward with kindness first, I think, um, it took me a long time to learn that, which is why I'm such a big advocate of it. Cuz I think when I was younger, I, I moved through life with entitlement a lot. I thought I deserved to be in certain spaces and I, I didn't understand hard work until I had to relearn how to do things from scratch. Or until like, doors didn't open for me because maybe I hadn't been the nicest person or whatever. Right. And I was so, I was learning the hard way a lot of things. But as I've gotten older, I've learned, you know, kindness goes far. Being a good, just being, being kind to people and, and opening spaces for people and being generous with your time. And it, it, it really, it's incredible how different my life has been as I have chosen to kind of remove the, like, cynicism from my life and to just kind of be open to what is next and, and who are the people that I'm with in this room and, and get to know them and not judge them. And it's incredible as I've chosen to kind of change my viewpoint on that, how much my life has changed in, in a positive way. And

I, I couldn't agree more. Like, and I I, I would equate some of that to having genuine curiosity for the world around. Like, rather than it turning inward, you are actually looking at the world around you. Who's next to you? What's, what are they about? What's this subject about? Then all of a sudden, your possibilities are fricking limitless. there's something I do with, with my clients that I work with, um, especially uh, students who maybe have a bit of a fixed mindset about what they want to do. You know? Cause we, we know those 17 year olds who are like, I know exactly what degree and what school. And so something I do with them as they're building their list is we build an agent of chaos.

Hmm.

So we take whatever school, whatever major, whatever region of the country that they're fixated on, and we just take it off the table for an exploration exercise. And I invite an agent of chaos. And if any time, money weren't an issue, talent weren't an issue, what would you try, what would, what school would you want to go to? What major would you want to explore? I'm curious if we took software and web engineering off the table, musical theater, acting, and classical voice off the table, cuz you've already tried everything. What other degree would you get if you were to go for something else? And it can be mischievous. Like what would you get a degree in?

I mean, you didn't take pottery off the table.

Oh no. Yes. I mean if it, would it be pottery? It totally would be

Absolutely. I would, I almost went to college for pottery and I, my, my, my pottery teacher at Interlochen was so mad at me for not going, um, continuing education. And I've always kind of kept it as like this little thing on the back burner, but like in another life I would live probably like in Arizona and I would have a giant garage that I would just leave the door open all day and my pottery studio would be in there and I would throw pots all day. That would be my life. I would be that crazy old lady with like just gray hair. And I would just, I would be such a hippy dippy lady and it would be so wonderful. And I have big dogs.

That is such a clear vision. There's still time. I'm just saying. I'm just saying there's

my retirement plan. I'm not kidding. Like I'm in tech so I can make the money so I can go do that.

I am, I'm here for it. I'm here for this. I love that answer. I love and I love that, um, that added passion, like there can be passion and curiosity in so many lanes. You just brought it up. So thank you for the segue. Let's talk a little bit about finance, because college, um, especially now can be, uh, a really giant investment. And I think there can be, um, a lot of misinformation about how a, I mean, just how much college actually costs over four years and what that means for a family and how to make those decisions accordingly. So I ask every guest, as you went through school and granted you went to nyu, do you feel like you overspent, underspent, or got it just right, and sort of how, why, like, loans, scholarships, academic, you know, like how did you handle the financial piece on this end?

Okay, so I'm gonna be very transparent with you. I have a lot of privilege in this space because I didn't have to pay for college. My father spent a lot of my child, like my whole, my whole life, just making sure that. Putting money away so that my brothers and I didn't have to pay for college, which I am forever indebted to and grateful for because it took that burden off

Holler, like, and we, we throw the gratitude for those moments. We throw the gratitude for the gifts that, that are given.

and I know, I, I, it's, it's interesting having, it took me a long time to reali. I remember like halfway through college realizing that not everybody had that, because I didn't know. I just assumed everybody. Was like me. I didn't, I it's so, the way that we talk about privilege now in 2023 is just not the way we talked about it when I was growing up. You know, like between you and me, I'm gonna be 40 in two weeks like I am. I am, I grew up in the eighties and the nineties, and so we just didn't talk about those things. So I had no concept outside of my bubble of how the world worked. but I have, you know, I've been working with, um, a high school senior. She just graduated like two weeks ago, um, on her college process, and her situation is very different than mine. And so we did a lot of research and we talked about scholarships and, there's so much stuff out there that I did not know, um, which is incredible. And so, like, you know, I, I, knowing what I know now, like I do, I think I overspent for N Y U probably, but like. You know, I, again, back to that thing, NYU was a great networking tool for me. I learned a lot. I was in New York. I met a lot of people. I was in the middle of where everything happened in a safe space, being at a school. So, you know, financially I'd say it was worth it. But again, I, I didn't pay for it. My dad paid for it.

and it's interesting to sort of discuss it in, in those ways, often for those schools, especially with those big ticket tuition tags. There is a privilege that comes at a premium that comes at, at, at a cost. And it's not to say that it's not that you don't get something from it, you, you do, but I think especially for those students of any sort of limiting means, it starts just become, you have to compare and sort of cage match your opportunities to, to know like, well, is that little bit of edge worth six figures more than this other, uh, institution and really weighing out between the two for, and that's where it's different for every human on the planet.

it's also hard to, knowing what I know now about how like scholarships work. If you get a scholarship and you go to a school, it is very hard to transfer depending on the terms of the scholarship. And so me, I was really fortunate I could transfer because I had nothing tying me down to being at Cincinnati. Um, I didn't have that. About, you know, debt or whatever. So like my mentee got, um, I helped her. She, she's brilliant on her own. Um, all I did was help find the scholarships for her, but she got a full ride to Pomona College. the QuestBridge scholarships. It's like

QuestBridge. We live for QuestBridge. We live,

So she's got this full. So, you know, it's like a massive scholarship. And, you know, one thing her and I are gonna, you know, we've been talking about is like with QuestBridge, she's kind of tied to that school for four years, you know, and so we talk about you can always chew it, you can always make a change. She's kind of locked in.

yeah.

And so we talked about that before she applied to scholarships. I was like, you know, if you, if this is one of the ones you really wanna apply to, you have to understand you're locked into the school and, and. Moving to another program will be very difficult. especially for her because the money is really helpful for her. She's, she's not like in a financial situation where going to college without scholarship will be possible. So, you know, it's, it's very different. That's hard. That's like, that's an important thing to weigh when you're making that.

absolutely. And, and then really identifying even within, like say a school like Pomona, like, are there internal shifts that could happen? Are there shifts internally within the school at large, like changing majors, changing to a different school? Like, but knowing, like I always just say eyes wide open. There's no wrong choice, just eyes wide open walking into this so that you, you're, you're not hamstrung, you know, down the road.

Yeah. And I didn't have that, like when I went, I, I was, like I said, I, I was oblivious. I was just like, where are all my friends applying to? You know? Like I was like, I don't know. I'm an inter, I was interlochen, so I applied to all the big music conservatories like you do. Like, I had no clue what I was doing. I was just like, okay. The only reason I didn't apply to Juilliard is because I didn't think that I would get it. I was just like terrified of Juilliard. I had so many friends who applied and I was like, no.

no, thank you. Yeah. Well, and actually that's, we, I talk a lot about the, you know, every, I, I often get the students, cuz you don't know what you don't know at that age and you don't know the industry at large. And, um, and that's why we have these conversations and I'll get students who are like, oh yeah. And I, I just wanna, I wanna apply to Juilliard just to like, I just wanna find out. I just wanna see, I just wanna, I wanna throw my hat in the ring and I was like, Can we have a little better reason to apply to a school like Juilliard? Like Juilliard is an incredible institution, but five minutes of research and you're probably gonna find out whether or not you really match with their style of training or whether you don't. And it's missing that five minutes of research that can be so detrimental. Cuz if you're just throwing your hat in the ring and you are putting the decision making entirely on Juilliard, well when that rejection comes, you then have the evidence file of like, I'm not good enough. Which is nothing to do with your skill or talent of getting versus I'm applying to the school because I am really interested in their training. If you get that, no. If you get that rejection, you're not, it's not necessarily tied to your own worth. It's just I didn't get in and I'm gonna find an another institution or another way to get that style of training.

And I think it's hard too at that age to understand how to do that research, right? To understand like what you're really getting yourself into when you look at these programs, like I think a lot about like Some kids like you may be better off at a small program, right? Where you're maybe one of like a group of 17 or 18 kids in your, in your class and, and you get an opportunity to perform in all the shows like that is probably gonna be a more beneficial training than being one of like, um, so many kids. Like when I was at nyu, I didn't do a single play. The entire time I was there, I was in an acapella group. That was the extent of the performing I did and the stuff that I did with that band. I didn't do any plays. I didn't do any musicals. I did no shows. And it wasn't until my senior year that I, I, on a whim auditioned for the Senior showcase, the musical Theater showcase. And I was not a musical theater major, I was just an acting major. I auditioned for the musical Theater showcase and got in and I was the only non-musical theater major to get in. And I lucked out like I. The stars were aligned, I think. I think it was just like all the trauma that I kind of overcome and everything kind of just worked out. The energy was in the right place for me. I don't know, but, but I got into it and that's how I got my agent. But I think a lot about, I. Man, if I had gone to a small program where I had actually gotten to play and, and be on stage and make mistakes and do all of that stuff, I would've learned so much more about being an actor. Cuz I just didn't, I didn't know. I, even when I graduated, I didn't know what I was doing. I, I made a lot of mistakes on my first tour in Asia. I just was such an idiot. I had no idea how to like, be a professional. I just, I learned a lot of things the hard way. You know, I, when I went on tour with Mamma Mia, I. Well before that, I, after I finished touring with Asia, I came home and I didn't work for a year. I couldn't get an interview. I couldn't get, I couldn't get, um, auditions. My agents were like, you're non-union. We can't really push you for some of this, but we can get you into some things, but you still need to go to open calls. And like, I just couldn't do anything. So I took acting classes and I took dance classes. And when I booked Mama Mia, I remember I got there and I had no idea how to learn a show in two weeks. The sound of music was a little different cuz I was playing Liesl. So I was working with all the kids and it was like this very intense process with them. But when I went into Mamma Mia, I had like basically a week and a half to learn my entire ensemble, role with me and a dance captain and nobody else. And I had no idea what I was doing. I almost got fired. Like they took me and this other guy who was learning the show with me, they didn't know if we could dance because we were having so much trouble picking up the choreography that quickly and. They were like, we need you to do the choreography from top to bottom. We're gonna have you do Vu. Or the whole Megamix. It was a whole megamix. And they had, they had our um, stage managers come in, music directors, everybody like, come and watch us do this Megamix. Cuz they were like, we don't know if you can sing and dance at the same time cuz you haven't been doing it during rehearsals. Cause I had no idea what I was doing. I never danced on stage before. I was like not ready or prepared for anything. And thank God, like, I, I, it was fine. But like, I remember months later, my dance captain who I later became friends with, she was like, oh girl. She's like, we almost fired you. Like, I didn't know what you were doing. And I was like, I dunno. Like nobody, nobody, I, I just didn't learn, I didn't learn that at school. So like, I sometimes look back at that. I'm like, man, if I had gone to a program where I actually got to like perform, My whole career probably would've been very different.

or you'd be throwing pottery in Arizona, like, who

Huh? Or I would've realized sooner that I, that maybe I don't wanna do it. I don't know.

Oh, no. It, it, i, I, I hope, like listeners sort of can take away from, from this idea is that it's actually okay and in many ways that, that a little bit of ignorance, a little bit of blindness moving forward and, and letting go of expectation is part of the magic is part of this, of the, the sweet spot, even though like ideally not to do it, like almost getting fired, but the idea that it turned out okay, you were actually trained d well enough, like, but this, this idea of not actually knowing everything in front of you can actually be a blessing. So long as you stay curious and open-minded moving forward and keep that sort of like growth mindset of like, yeah, I can figure this out. I mean, it's your, it's your engineering brain. It's like, alright, I need to figure out this choreography in two weeks. How am I gonna do it?

And I learned, I mean, what was great about that experience is I. Mamma Mia taught me how to be a professional. It taught me how to learn things quickly. It taught me how to take a note. It taught me how to take in new information and before I question it, before I ask, before I like panic about the the note, because I don't know what they're asking. I'm gonna go and I'm gonna try it and if I have any questions, I'm gonna come back the next day. I'm go, Hey, thank you for the note yesterday. I tried this out, here's what happened. And that alone was one of the biggest learning experiences I could have ever had. Which just how to take a note, how to take in new information without being offended or taking it personally. You know, just like how to, like, how to be professional. Cuz I did not learn that. It just, I had to learn it the hard way. I, I, I really had to learn a lot of things the hard way. But you know what, the moral of the story is still works out, like you said, right? Like, sometimes we have to learn things the hard way. And I think if we're persistent and we persevere, like, and we're resilient, It's gonna be okay, you

gonna be okay. And it, I love that. I think there's something odd about artists and the perfectionism that comes with, with art and musical theater in particular. I. Most industries you do in fact learn on your first professional job. You actually do learn a professional point of view on the job. Not at school yet. There's a, there's a different sort of bar, I think for musical theater professionals and musical theater performers that I don't know anyone who didn't, who didn't cry at some point on their first professional job. Because it is an overload of information. It is learning. And it, that doesn't have to be a bad thing. And it actually doesn't even have to be trauma. It just has to be, oh, I'm in an uncomfortable space. I'm learning something new. And that it's okay that you didn't learn it in college.

absolutely. It's okay to learn things and be uncomfortable while you're learning them.

Ding, ding, ding. I'm just sort of curious. I want, I want to turn this a little bit, Because you've worked with so many students, and I'm presuming that you've worked with students going into STEM and into creative fields, or maybe some mix of both. Because I love those students. I love those students who come to me who are like, I'm a creative writer and I'm interested in, you know, biochemistry.

Yeah.

You know, cool. How do we put those together? What does that, what does that mean for you and, and your college experience? Have you seen any like unique challenges, opportunities for this next generation, particularly as it relates to STEM and artistry?

So one thing that I think is really unique about the time that we live in right now that did not exist when I was 18, 19, 20, whatever, um, or when I was on tour even, is just how accessible everything is via your computer. You know, I, I see how many, like, there are side hustles. You can learn, you know, you can learn drop shipping and do it in your spare time and make money. You can open a store on Etsy and you can sell shirts that you never have to make yourself. You just find another company that prints them out and hook it all up. You can learn software engineering and you can build your friends' websites on Squarespace because they don't have time to do it. Just charge'em a little bit of money, right? You can learn WordPress, which is super easy, and then get a little bit more into HTML. You can, you can learn so much for free on the internet today that you could not do when I was young and, if I had, if that had been accessible to me. I like to think that. When I was on tour and during the day and had nothing to do and would just sit at, sit on my hotel room and watch like bad TV all day. man, I could have been learning something. I could have been learning skills or I could have been like building websites. I could have like been making money. I could have been finding and developing skills that I could have then made maybe a side career or something that would've made me feel more confident financially while I was going through my whole journey. So that when I wanted to leave a show, I wasn't upset that, oh God, what am I gonna do? I won't have health insurance, I won't have any income. How can I justify leaving this job? Or what if my show closes and, and then I have nothing? And I, I think, you know, a lot of actors tend to end up. In jobs like, personal training and things that involve working with people. And I think that's all well and good because that's something that we are all innately good at, right? We end up being teachers. We end up working in these spaces where we're directly with people. But I think if our can find something they can do that does not require being in a space with people, they're going to be so much better off in the long run. You know, like be a, be a, a, a virtual assistant for somebody, you know, like there's so much stuff you can do from your computer, from anywhere that is not reliant on human beings. And being in a space, which I know it sounds sad and lonely, but I think if we can find ways to. Have something like that earlier, it could just take that pressure off of us so that like, you know, if we haven't worked a job in a minute, we don't walk into that, that audition room just breaking of desperation cuz we're like hungry and we, and we have, we're afraid that we're gonna lose our health insurance and we're, we're afraid that if we don't get this job, we're gonna have to go back home to Iowa. Or, you know, like finding ways to make sure that we have safety nets. And I think there's this, there's like, it's like a safety net is like a bad word if you're an artist, right? Cause

Yeah.

got your safety net, you're always gonna fall back on it. And I

Oh, I hate, oh, that makes me, yes and yes. And it improv instead. Yes. And it.

It's so cringing. It's so unfair. It just, it doesn't, it, it. Speaking as if people are, are that like one directional, right? That like, we can't be multi hyphenates, that we can't have multitudes of things that we do. And I, I think it's really unfair, you know, that whole thing of like, you know, if you can see yourself doing anything else, you should go do that. And I'm like, get out of here. Go do that and do that. Do every, like, why are we limiting ourselves, to just one path? I think it's, it, it's so unfair to ourselves. We're so much more than that.

And I see it bring great misery. Like I actually see that mindset bring such suffering and misery. And it's, the crazy part is, and I think this is partly why I have this podcast in this business, is I can actually stem a lot of that back to some mindset of a 16 year old who feels like Broadway or bust. And it's this idea of. There's no, there actually is no wrong answer.

Yeah.

Stay open-minded, stay curious, move forward. It's, it's so, so vital. If there's something stoking at you, a fire, a passion, oh my gosh, go for it and see how it intersects. That's the part for me. It's like I, it took me, you know, this many years to realize, oh my gosh, my interests were theater, education, and business. I took all these business classes. I didn't even get a business minor, but I took all these business classes in undergrad and the where they all cross, where those Venn diagrams cross is exactly where I am right now.

Absolutely. I love that. Yeah, it, my friend just wrote a book, um, all your listeners. I'm. Plug it. Um, it's called The Portfolio Life. she, she, I went to Interlochen with her. She is a Harvard business grad and she teaches over at Harvard and she wrote this beautiful book about living a portfolio life. and she considers herself a human Venn diagram and how we all live at the intersection of all these different parts of ourselves. And I love it. I just think it's such a lovely way to view ourself. We're not one thing, you know, we have, we can be all of these different sides of ourselves and it's, it's lovely because also the thing is when you allow yourself to step out of your comfort zone and step out of the, the path that you viewed for yourself, that your 17 year old self viewed for yourself, you might discover that your success lies somewhere else. You know that, that your true happiness or the things that you're good at might. Be like a step to the left. Right? They might be on a whole nother path. And, and if we don't allow ourselves to kind of play and, and try those things, we'll never find that out. it's, it's, it's, I think a lot about, a lot of, um, Creators who have gone off and become writers and become, directors, and they've, they've taken on these more, these roles where they get to kind of be in control of the outcome, as opposed, that started off as actors and, and it was out of a necessity, right? It's out of like, well, nobody's giving me work, so I'm gonna go make my work. Right? And I, you know, I, it's a lot of people, they, they're like, well, nobody's giving me a platform. I'm gonna start a podcast. I'm gonna, I'm gonna put my voice out there because nobody else is giving me anywhere to put my voice. And, and there's so many tools now that we have to do that. So we, where we can kind of take that control back, that is also creative. Um, and you just, you don't know where the success is going to end up being. I had no idea my success would be where it is right now. And I don't even know if this is it. Right? Like, I like, changing careers has opened up so many. Interesting doors and given me an opportunity to help people in a way that I never even imagined I could do. you know, and I think about, yeah, and

girl. Same.

And then just to like, think about the future, right? What am I gonna be, maybe I won't be a software engineer forever. I don't know. I, I think a lot about, I wanna be in a leadership role, right? What would that look like? How do I take on leadership roles in, in tech? How do I, how do I get to that space where I can then be an example for women who wanna be in tech that see me in a leadership position, right? Like, I, I think about like, what can I do to make other people who maybe don't see themselves in certain spaces realize like, oh, I could do that. You know? That's become something that's really important to me. Who knew? I, I don't think I ever would've thought that of myself before. You know, maybe it's the teacher and me, and it's the fact that I, I love helping people and I want, I want people. I want people to be brave. I want them to step outta their comfort zone and try things that scare them. You know? I think that's how we grow, cuz that's how I grow.

100% that. That is, that is the jam. Uh, I wanna ask you one really quick final question. and I ask everyone this, you could boil it down, what's the one thing you wish you had understood about the, specifically the college application process before you started?

Hmm. One thing, expect that you're probably not gonna get what you want, I guess. I think, you know, just when you have your eye on one school and you have not allowed yourself. To get excited about anything else. Um, and then if that doesn't work out, you're gonna just, you're setting yourself up for lots of disappointment. And, and there are positives in all outcome all out there. Every, every outcome there are things we can find that are positive. So making sure that you don't put all your eggs in one basket. you know, I, I think about, I auditioned for, I wanted to go to Eastman School of Music so bad,

Of course, of course.

My top school. And I remember flying out of Interlochen, flying out of Traverse City, Michigan to get to Eastman, to Northern New York. Um, we had a huge snowstorm, got delayed, got in at like two in the morning. My audition was first thing in the morning at like 8:00 AM and I blew it. I was tired. I'm 17, I was exhausted and it was just, it was awful. And I remember just being like, oh no, I ruined it and I'm never gonna go to, I'm never gonna go to Eastern School of Music. And, and so it was hard for me then to get excited about any, the other options. Like I ended up picking Cincinnati cuz it was closer to home. But like, you know, I didn't know much about it. I, I got into Oberlin and I didn't do any research about it. Like I hadn't even, like, if I think back on it now, I'm like, oh my God, I should go Oberlin

I would've liked Oberlin.

Conservatory music about it. So I was like, I don't know. Like, and, and I, I, I didn't think about it. I just didn't do enough research. I didn't make, I didn't, I didn't spend enough time getting excited about all of the options and thinking about the positives in each outcome. And that is the thing I wish that I had thought about a little bit more. Each outcome has, there is something positive for all of them, and it is your job to find that. Otherwise don't apply there.

Oh my God. You're literally like preaching from my book, and I, I can't thank you enough. Like it's, it is that, it's like, be stoked. If you're going to community college, be stoked. If you're taking a gap year, be stoked. If you're going to get a job, like

you're gonna save so much money at community college. Oh my God. Be so excited about that. And you're gonna get all of those credits out of the way that you don't care about. You don't have to do

win, win when,

It's a win. It's all a win. There's always a win.

thank you so much Carla. I I do wanna just put this out there. If people wanna get ahold of you and see what you're up to, how might they do? So

Um, I do have a website, carla stickler.com, which has links to all my socials and, I think you can contact me through my website. I post a lot on LinkedIn these days, and TikTok Instagram I like, but, um, I'm taking, I've been taking a little break from Instagram. I'm, I'm on there

you're present, you're present,

present. Instagram felt a little silly to me and I was like, I don't know what I'm selling right now. I'm just kind of, I, if I don't have like, a business to sell. But, um, I, I, I do like to talk about musical theater stuff on TikTok, and then I like to talk about inspirational, like career change stuff on LinkedIn. So that's kind of.

you're dropping truth bombs left and right on both platforms, so thank you. Thank you for that. I'm so glad we got to chat today. This is, this is lovely. And thank you, Carla. We'll be in touch.

Yeah. Thanks for having me. It was great.

thank you, Carla. That's another interview episode of the Creative College Journey podcast. We hope this episode with Carla Stickler was beneficial to you and want to thank you for taking time outta your busy day to listen. If you're in need of some encouragement, guidance, and inspiration for your college journey and would like to work with Scott, don't hesitate to head to our website, www.creativecollegejourney.com to schedule a free, no obligation one hour consultation to find out the many ways the Creative College journey can help you on your path. You can also find Scott Barnhardt on Instagram at Scott Barnhardt. If you enjoy the show, please rate and review us on Apple Podcasts. It really does help others find us. And be sure to come back in the coming weeks for more discussions about creative college admissions, lowering the temperature on the process and the many industry pathways and transferable skills that a creative education and life can offer. Don't forget, it's not where you go to school, but how you go to school. That counts. Thank you.