Welcome to the Creative College Journey podcast, the place to help raise awareness on the many pathways to a creative life and education and how college might be a part of it, because it's not where you go to school, but how you go to school that counts. Hosted by professional, creative, and college expert Scott Barnhardt, who is chatting with a variety of guests who have some amazing lived experiences from different universities, majors and creative industry interests. And we hope by hearing their stories, it might help give you some inspiration to find your own Creative College Journey.

I am thrilled to welcome my next guest today, a former student of mine from the Orange County School of the Arts, and as of 2022, also a fellow Bruin Go Bruins. Thalia Atallah is a bicultural Lebanese Latinx performer from Los Angeles, California. She is a true triple threat. Actress Singer Dancer, who has worked professionally all throughout Southern California and graduated from OCSA in 2018 before attending and graduating from the U C L A School of Theater, film and Television with a BA in theater and an emphasis in musical theater. Thalia was most recently seen in the Broadway national tour of Anastasia, dancing and singing in the Ensemble, as well as understudying, the Leading Lady Anya. Y'all rendition of Journey to the Past is Magic. Some other favorite roles include Leading Player in Pippin, Gertrude Mcfuzz in Seussical Suse and Nina in In the Heights. On a personal note, I am so proud of Thalia and her perseverance, talent and growth mindset. It's been nothing short of inspiring to witness her journey. She is pounding the pavement and making a creative life in the entertainment industry happen for herself. Hashtag booked and blessed Thalia and I only had a single year to work together at OCSA, and I would've happily have taken many more than that, but. I have to say, some of the conversations about college that we had that year truly are part of the inspiration for the work that I'm doing today. And for that I am always, always grateful. With that, please welcome to the podcast Thalia Atallah.

I'm so excited to be here.

This is so great. I love that you're, you're in a little bit of a break. From your tour, you just got off of the Anastasia tour. You're having like a little summer fun, before your next gig, which we won't talk about, but I can't wait for you to share when you can. Which is so, so exciting. So I ask everyone this, how are you doing? Like actually, like today, right now, how are you?

How am I? You know, I'm doing well. I just about a month ago came off of Anastasia. I was a 10 month contract and that was a truly, I. It was like a life-changing experience, right? Like I had just graduated UCLA, it was my last week at UCLA and I received the offer for Anastasia, so straight out of UCLA, graduated. It was a big graduation and um, a big celebration. And then I had about a month or two, and then I headed on tour and it was just, it was nonstop, right? It was just go, go, go on tour. So the second that I came off of that, I was just, I was honestly a bit confused, like, well now, like I just spent the past two months like just going and just, having my whole world be this one show. Everything revolved around this one show. So when I came off of Anastasia, I was. Just kind of confused. I didn't know exactly how to feel, so I was kind of in that state of mind for a little bit. And then I was lucky enough to now book something else, which now I'm preparing for. So I'm kind of in this like great state right now where I've kind of like closed one chapter and I'm very content with that. And I'm just now gearing up and prepping for this next contract, which, um, I'm excited about. So I'm just kind of. In I'm, I'm like coasting right now. I'm enjoying the California sun. I'm enjoying some family time, some friend time, and I'm just like gearing back up to get to get back out there. So it's kind of how I'm doing. I'm doing good.

I love those. It's actually part of the freelance creative life is you often get these like breaks in between really intense. Pieces of work, which can be, uh, well, a, it's often quite necessary just to recalibrate and come back to the world. That's, that's so exciting. I'm so excited for you and like all that's coming down the pike for you. do wanna know, how do you like, identify, and how do you identify creatively? What do you call yourself? Actor, singer, dancer, anything else? Like how, how do you identify.

Yeah, so I like to describe myself as a professional actress, as in I. I, I mainly do musical theater. I'm a musical theater performer. I love singing, dancing, acting. Being on stage is where I'm most comfortable, most me, but I don't close myself off to other acting gigs, like the screen and voiceover. I also like to choreograph, so I also throw that in there. I love choreographing, so singer, dancer, actress, choreographer is how I see myself. How, right now, that's where I'm at.

Genius. Oh, so great. So great. So we share a fun fact, and I'm, I'm never shy about it, that we're both UCLA Bruins. I got my masters there. In 2017, you got your BA in 2022. Um, and it's so funny, I so vividly remember senior year Thalia talking with you cuz you had a bunch of offers and one of them was UCLA and you were really excited about it. But there was this idea of like, oh, if I go to a school on the west coast, the pursuit towards a professional life in theater might be too far away. It might get away from me. Um, which we can laugh about now, now that you're like booking nonstop. So let's go back to high school, Thalia, and I'm just sort of curious like how you got to that spot. Tell us a little bit about. Your decision making about how you approached college, where you applied your goals, like what kinds of programs you were looking for, and sort of what led you to deciding to attend UCLA.

So before really looking into colleges and just thinking about where I wanted to spend like my next four years. I did not wanna stay in California. I've spent my whole life in San Dimas California. I'm a California girl, went to Orange County School of the Arts, and I was just so eager to move somewhere else, specifically New York City, like still to this day. Broadway is just the goal. It's always, always has a very big goal for me. Um, big dream and so, I thought at the time, like I have to be in New York City to achieve that dream. And I don't know if California has much more to offer me, like this point in my life. That's how I was feeling. Um, so I did a lot of research and I mainly applied to east coast schools, but my mom actually kind of. Forced me to apply to a few California schools. She's like, Thalia, you need to have options. And I think that you should just try to apply to some California schools. You know, you can apply to like four ucs. Like, I think like, I don't know what, I can't remember exactly how it was, but it was like kinda like a one application to apply to like four different ucs. Both of my went to ucs were uc families. So, um, at the time I was super closed off to it, but I was, I know I listened to my mom and I was open to at least applying to some California schools,

Well, and I, I will say I love that. I always say parents get a vote if they're paying. If they're, they're a part of the conversation, they get a vote. Maybe not a veto, but they definitely get a vote. So that, that makes sense that there was a little bit of negotiation about getting some ucs on your, on your application list.

Totally, yeah, with my, with my parents, like, it was definitely like a partnership with me applying to college because as much as like I could do my own research and I can look into these schools, like they also want what's best for me. So I really would have a lot of great, great conversations with them about what made most sense for me. So yeah, my mom was like, you should just apply to some California schools. Um, And so I did also in-state tuition was also a big factor in, it's something that I wasn't, you know, I wasn't just super thinking about, like at the time I just wanted to go to the best program and I wanted to be on Broadway, and I wasn't really thinking financials as much as like my parents were. So they were like, Hey, you should really think about in-state tuition too. Like those kinds of scholarships you can get with being an in-state student. So yeah, I've applied to like, 11, 12 schools I wanna say. And mainly on the East coast. Cause I thought that that, um, was like what I, where I wanted to go. So after. Auditioning and applying to these schools. I was fortunate enough to get accepted into about like seven schools from musical theater and one of them was UCLA and like some other ones were like NYU Pace, Syracuse. So I had some like New York City options or just New York options and I ended up kind of narrowing it down to Pace and UCLA. And so we did like the pace overnight kind of situation where they had musical theater students that are, who were accepted into the school come kind of observe classes, stay the night there, um, just to see what the program is about. So I went, uh, I wanna say, I don't remember what, what month it was. I just know it was really freaking cold. So I like go there and it's really freaking cold and I've, I've lived my whole life in California and I go there and I swear, like I was walking outside and I was like, this is so painful. This was something I was like trying to adjust to actively while I was there. So I like, I was just kinda like uncomfortable and whatever. Like that didn't ruin the trip for me. But I remember instantly thinking, okay, weather, like, let's think about this. Like I do not have to like go through this in California, but whatever. Like we're going, I go to Pace. And I stay the night there and I, and I see it, and it's, it's a great program. It's great for, um, get kind of getting students to Broadway. I would kind of say like, it's right there. And that was kind of something I was really interested in, but I remember just being there and just something didn't feel right. And you always hear that. I felt like I always used to hear that and I would like, that's not me. I'm too much of, of an overthinker. But in that moment, I remember trying to fall asleep in one of the dorms and I couldn't, like, I couldn't go to sleep because. I was so in my head of like, like I thought this was my number one choice and something feels off. I don't feel comfortable. I feel like kind of weird, like something about it feels a little like just weird to me. I couldn't like process it in the moment. So I finished that and it's not like Pace is like an awful school. I'm not like poo-pooing pace. It's more just me didn't resonate. So then, um, that next week I had like the UCLA admitted student like musical theater a day. And I get there and it's just the most gorgeous campus I'd ever seen. It was a solid 80 degrees picnic outside tour throughout like the beautiful, and it was just like, Whoa. Like this just seems like lovely. And I was like listening to what the program had to offer and it all just like started kind of making sense, um, financially what the program had to offer and just the atmosphere of it all. I just felt super like content there and it just totally started to like shift my mindset because I was so closed off to thinking like East Coast, east Coast, east Coast. I didn't even like consider, well, what would it be like to. Like stay here and go to a school that's like as amazing as UCLA. Like UCLA is the top public university in the nation, and here I am being like, no, mom. I don't wanna go to UCLA before I even knew anything about it. So once I started to kind of like do more research into it, I felt so at home, at the campus, I kind of realized what I needed was. I needed that like a solid like four year college experience. Pace was not like the typical kind of like college, the way UCLA is. UCLA has the sports, it has the big campus, it has the amazing academics. And I had felt that PACE was kind of like OCSA, it was like a conservatory driven, um, it was a BFA conservatory driven program where, Like everything would be really focused on like singing, dancing, acting. While I thought UCLA for me would make me a little more well-rounded, it's a ba so it's kind of like 50% academics, 50% theater classes. and I was just excited to kind of like just grow as a person in general versus just like, As a musical theater performer, I felt I could like get both out of this, this school. Um, and then, and then I heard someone say this. I don't know if it was you, but it's just something that resonated with me. Someone had said to me New York City will always be there. It will be there. So don't feel that pressure to just like go like it because it will be there. And I felt like I had some growing to do as a person, as a performer, and I felt that that was like the best place for me to do it. So I ended up going to UCLA.

I, I love that story. I don't know if it was me, but I feel like I was one of those voices that was like, it'll be there, there's, there are pathways. The school doesn't actually dictate your industry success. You do. You finding spaces that feel good for you, where you are going to thrive and grow, and that, that can be almost anywhere. And so I love that, that. distinciton Pace is a great university. It's a great program, but it wasn't a match, which I think is, that's ultimately what you're looking for. And knowing how the four years went for you at UCLA l it was very clear that that was an institution that was a beautiful match for you in in that moment.

Yeah.

You sort of mentioned the idea that you were in a program that was like a little more, 50 50, uh, 50% academics, 50%, you know, sort of training theater, theater driven. How did that feel for you? I, I also got a ba for my undergrad. I loved it. Wh what was that experience for you? Any like surprising classes that you took that somehow transferred into your thought process as an actor?

Yeah, totally. So I, I enjoyed the ba um, experience. I, I mainly enjoy it more for like the long run of my life. Like maybe in the moment I just wanna sing and I wanna dance and I wanna act, but I just felt like as a human being, I wanted to like just broaden my knowledge on everything. So I just felt that having 50%, like these like amazing UCLA classes with these like super studious people, and then 50% just honing in on musical theater. I felt it was just like a cool, a cool like compromise for me, especially because I went to an arts high school. So I kind of like already, honestly, like since I came out of the womb, I knew I wanted to do musical theater. It's just something about me. I just love it. I eat, sleep and breathe it. So I had no problem in college. Kind of like spreading it out a little bit and not just like focusing in on, um, Musical theater. I took a lot of interesting classes. I mean, this is like, this is still kind of theatery, but I took like a Shakespeare English class where we got to like analyze Shakespeare plays, not from like a performance point of view, but as like from an English point of view and a writing point of view, and just like, Yeah, like learn about his life and so I felt like I, like for my acting, could better understand Shakespeare and who he was and why, and how he created what he created. Then that kind of informs my acting, right? I took this really interesting class. It was like I. Plagues and pandemics in like ancient Greece and on. So that was a really cool one cuz it was right after the pandemic and even Shakespeare was, um, affected by plagues. And I did like a whole presentation on that and like how plagues like the, um, black plague, like informed his writing. So, That was also a really cool class cuz we had just come out of the pandemic and now here I am kind of getting this like better understanding of how pandemics had like affected people throughout history. So just like things like that I just really, I really enjoyed, like during my time at UCLA and like taking a BA versus a bfa.

Ah, yes. And it makes for really smart actors, really interesting humans and interesting humans make great artists by and large.

and something that's also unique to UCLA. I'm not sure what other programs offer this, but UCLA, your freshman year, you do something called the Freshman Experience. And in the freshman experience, um, there's like 80 theater. Majors and then everyone kind of has their emphasis, like I emphasized musical theater. But during the freshman experience, all of those theater majors are like put together and you all kind of have like the same-ish curriculum as in you learn about stage management, you learn about lighting design, you learn about costume design, and you just kind of get this like taste of like kind of everything that makes up theater. And of course sometimes it's a little frustrating cuz here I am like. Sewing and I'm like, why am I doing this? I wanna go whack my face in my dance class. Like I don't wanna be sewing. But then again, you look back and it's like, okay, well now like after, like now I can like look back on this, on these things that I learned and then go on my tour and then better understand what everyone around me is doing versus just being like in my own world, like I have a better understanding of what the stage manager's job is and the costume designer Jo, like I can just kind of really fully understand the world I'm in. Um, which I thought was really cool. A cool experience for freshmen. So,

Ooh, and so useful. I love that you connected that to the professional life because that is one of the. Secrets to longevity in a professional life is actually connecting with the full world around you. Not just, you know, uh, the people in your exact lane. You do wanna get to know the stage managers. You do wanna know the, you know, the wardrobe heads and the difference between a dresser and a wardrobe head, and a designer and, and a Stitcher, like they're different. And knowing that and honoring that and seeing people for. The work that they're contributing. Ooh, that's, that's gold for longevity.

Yeah, totally, totally. Even like the small things like, oh, we have to swap out this gel like a lighting gel. I wouldn't have known what that was if I didn't take a lighting class at UCLA. Just like those small things that were really useful.

I love it. Uh, I wanna talk about your audition prep for colleges. Uh, again, you did really well. You had a lot of yeses, you had a lot of options. what do you think you did in terms of your prep? Was it material mindset? What do you feel that you did that really helped people turn their eye towards you or, or draw them towards you?

Yeah, that's like, that's an interesting question cuz it's like, Yeah, what did I like? What did I do right? Like I had to kinda go back to that like senior year at Thalia. I would say my first step for my prep was really using the resources around me. I was fortunate enough to be like going to OCSA. I used you a lot. I used my voice teacher at the time. Amy Harwell a lot. Like I, I used like rj, he's a great tapper. I asked him to help me with tap. Emily Bagley, great ballerina, asked her to help me with ballet. I really just like, Used everything around me to like best set myself up. So I feel like that was my first step was like, okay, how do I first just like set myself up for success? And that was like having some of those conversations coming into your office asking if you had any monologue recommendations. Just like those, those small things. Right. And then once I kinda like started prepping, I. I, I, I had to kinda like, reflect inward and be like, well, what makes me me, what, how can I put my best foot forward and show these colleges that I am the person that they wanna have in their program And that like, I'm serious about this and this is what I have to offer. How can I show them what I have to offer? And something for me that I feel has always kind of set me apart or something that I love to like hone in on is, This whole triple threat thing. The whole singer, dancer, actress, I've always felt very kind of equally confident in all three, and I've just, that, that makes me like, I just feel very, I feel like I'm a diverse performer. I feel like that's something that I really wanted to show these colleges, like I am diverse, so, Coming into the college auditions, I wanted to show like one side of me, like here is the soprano girl that can be the ingenue. And then here is the character kind of belty girl. And then, yeah, here's me tapping, and now here's me dancing on point. And now here's me doing, um, musical theater, jazz, and hip hop. Like, I just wanted to show that I am diverse. So that was something I think really helped me, get accepted into the colleges I did, was I figured out. What made me, me, I figured out what I was the most confident in and I made sure to really show it in my material and show that. Like, I am confident in like my diversity. Like this is, this is me. I'm diverse. You can stick me in all these places and you want me in your program. That was kind of my mindset. Um, and I would say like when it actually came to being in the room just mustering up, I think that confidence is everything. I feel people can really always tell if you aren't confident or if you're like, this sounds a little harsh, but like wreaking with. Like being desperate. I think they can feel that energy. And I think like as long as you take a breath and you're calm and you know who you are and you walk into that room showing who you are, and it's this mutual exchange of like, here I am. This is me just sharing my talents. Um, I think we'll help you like get really far with the college audition process. It was a very positive process for me, and not everyone can say that, but for me that's how I kind of went about it and it was really fun.

I live for that advice. I live for that advice. It, uh, the way I would sort of like, uh, equate it, it's. Your audition is a gift to someone. You're, you are giving them something. It isn't the thing that's gonna get you what you want. It's actually a gift without expectation. Hey, you know, I would love to go to your program, but here's my gift to you. Now you decide, and then you leave it. You leave it in that room. And it sounds like at a really early age, you had some insight in terms of not walking into the room with desperation, which is it? I it is huge. It's the same in the professional world too, right? I mean, you have to walk in not wreaking like you, if, if you don't get this job, you won't eat. That's not desirable for, for an employer. Uh, right.

also like holds you back as a performer. Like, you know, if you're feeling all like that anxious, you're not gonna drop into your breast support and hit all those high notes that you normally can hit. So it's just like you have to like find that confidence, which can be so hard in an industry where you get so many nos. But I think it's just tapping into what makes you you and bringing that to the table.

Oh, that's, Gold. You've learned, you've learned some good stuff, my friend. You've learned some good stuff. I would love to sort of ask you, you had an interesting, you had some professional representation, through most of your college career, if I'm not mistaken. I'm curious, how did you balance that, the idea of like needing to self-tape, I'm presuming in your dorm, or like how did you balance, uh, auditioning for professional work while also. Being a student, which are two very separate things. How, how did you navigate that?

So I've had the same representation since I was like 15, so like my end of my freshman year of high school. Um, I like found representation and just have, I've been with them this whole time, so I. That's a tricky question because it, it wasn't easy, if I'm honest. Um, because I was so wrapped up in my world at UCLA. I wasn't thinking about what could, what I could do outside of UCLA. Cause I was like, I was living at this place, I was working at this place. I was studying here, like it was my world as, as is for everyone. But I knew it was important to com continue to submit and continue to kind of put myself out there. More just like to put myself out there. Not because I really wanted work as a college student, like I was really great with just getting my degree and then working. It was more just like, I know it can be hard to get representation. These people know me and they, they send me out for some great stuff. So I persevered and I would submit and I would submit. And it wasn't always easy cuz I was usually like in the middle of writing an essay and then all of a sudden I have to submit a voiceover audition. And it's just not exactly where my priorities were at at the time, but, I knew that like in the long run, that that representation would do me well. And they have, they've, they've gotten me a lot of really great auditions. So it was just like a matter of balance of like, there were some auditions that would come through that I just would be like, I am not gonna book this. This is not me. And I would communicate that to my representation. And I would also have to communicate, Hey, like letting you know, like, I am in school and this is where I'm at. You know, it, it was, it was hard. Um, And not until like, cuz there was the pandemic, right? So there was about two years where it didn't really, it wasn't, I wasn't really affected by my representation cuz nothing was happening during the pandemic. My senior year of, uh, UCLA was when I was really communicating with my agents, like, I'm ready to really guns ablaze, submit, fly out to the city if I have to. I remember I like had to miss my like, senior photo shoot for our like senior showcase because I was. Called back for something like, and I was okay with that. I feel like mostly my senior year was when I was like, out of place where I was like, now I need to really start thinking about life after this school. And before that it was a little more like, okay, just put yourself out there, Thalia. Um, but it's, it's a little difficult to do that, but like, just, just keep doing it cuz it's important for your career. That's kind of like what my mentality was with that.

Ooh. And I love that. It, it's, it's difficult, but not impossible. This idea of building boundaries with representation or building out priorities accordingly. Uh, ooh. It sounds like you've got great rep. If they followed you along with that,

Yeah. Yeah, totally. I, it's funny because yeah, they signed me when I was like 1450. I'm not that same like 14, 15 year old girl. So there are some moments where I had to hop on the phone with them or meet with them and just be like, Hey, like this is me. Like, let me remind you like. I do this and I do this and like this is like where I thrive and like remember I do musical theater cuz sometimes they would just send me out on like Netflix stuff. I'm like, hey, like what about Aladdin on Broadway? Like, that's me. Like, you know. So, um, it's just having that communication I think is really important, especially having a representation in school. You have to have that communication.

Yeah. Beautiful. I'm gonna ask you a little, uh, this is a, a curve ball question. The clients that I'm working with, I, I sometimes bring in an agent of chaos, especially if someone has a really fixed mindset on only this major, or it has to be this school. And sometimes I just take those. Single track minds and take it off the table. So we take musical theater off the table. We take UCLA or any of the East Coast schools off the table. you had to study anything else, what might you study? What is that agent of chaos that you might do that like no one would see coming?

Okay, so this is a hard question for me. This was a question I got asked one time in a college interview, and it, it stumped me because as I've like already mentioned, musical, the I Eat, sleep, and breathe musical theater. That is just what makes me me. So it's hard to like imagine a world without it. But I will say growing up I loved watching the news and I would always tell my mom, I'm gonna be that girl. I'm gonna be like a broadcast journalist, like that's gonna be me. So I would say, um, I would say I would go into like a field of journalism. I was in journalism at OCSA and I really loved it. And I would try to be a broadcast journalist and you know, that's kind of cheating cause that's still performing in a way. But it is something that I think I'm also passionate about. So that's like what I.

I love that overlap. I think that overlap is brilliant and I think it really explains you and your brain too. I love that. Cuz we, we then that often says like, oh, what theater are you actually interested? There's probably a little journalistic like underpinning to the, to the theater that you're really drawn to. I would, I would guess, or it just fun to sort of think about, Ooh, what are the other things that make me, me, uh oh, that's interesting. I don't think I knew that about you.

Yeah, totally. Yeah.

Um, I do wanna talk about something you brought up at a talk back. Uh, I brought you back to talk to, uh, a senior class after you had graduated, and this is a little bit of a pain point, so I wanna acknowledge that. And I'll never forget when you brought language to this. Ooh. It, it opened my eyes to this and it made me so mad. Um, But again, we talked about this, you applied to 11, 12 schools, got into seven. For any senior, that should be nothing but celebration. That should be just like, wow, look at this accomplishment. And, and you brought up the fact that with many of your, uh, white peers and some parents, uh, of those peers, when you would get the congratulations because you're a woman of color. It would be caveated with, oh, but they're looking for diversity. Oh, they're looking for ethnicity and would diminish your huge accomplishment. Now, like we can acknowledge the industry even since then has grown in leaps and bounds, um, and still has lots of work to do. We can acknowledge educational institutions have grown by leaps and bounds and still have a lot of work to do. But can we sort of talk about that point of someone naming, oh, well this is why you got it, versus your skill, your talent, your discipline, which I can speak to is enormous. Can we talk about that experience? And maybe we can also sort of talk about ways some of our listeners can think about approaching this part of the conversation as they move through their college journey.

Totally. Yeah. This topic is something that I've lived with for a while now. Um, growing up in theater as a little kid, I didn't, it was all, it was the opposite. As a little kid, as a little kid, I, I didn't understand why I wasn't cast as a Von Trapp or why I wasn't being cast as Annie. And I always, I actually wrote my college, um, like submission video on this. I always like reflected inward on that and like I would see some of my other friends thriving and be like, well, why aren't I thriving? Like, Okay. I booked mogley. I booked Fiddler on the Roof, but I wasn't like booking some of these other things that my, my white friends had been booking. And then it wasn't until high school when there, there was a shift, and that shift was kind of highlighting minorities and people of color. And when that happened, it was, it was exciting. Um, but it also came with a lot of like backhanded comments, demeaning comments, um, Such as, oh, well of course you got into a bunch of schools, Thalia like, I'm a a white girl, blonde eye, blonde hair, blue eyes, and you are a person of color. I'm like, what? Like it would just like throw me for a loop every time. Cuz how do you respond to that? Because here's the thing, obviously in theater, part of your package is your look is just, that's just part of what you have to offer. Like as much as you like, like it or not, like what you look like it affects, like what jobs you're going to book. Sometimes. And so sure, that's part of my package is that yes, I am a proud Lebanese Puerto Rican Mexican woman, but that does not mean I, I don't work just as hard as you and like I don't work just as hard as anyone else. That doesn't mean I don't have the same skillset or more skillset than these other people in the room. Um, it can be like extremely demeaning and even like, literally like, Last week telling someone about this recent job that I just booked. Same kind of thing. Oh, well, yeah. That, that casting, they were, they were like, it's just known. They want people of color, so that's great for you. And I'm like, what are you saying? Like, I've worked so hard, I've worked so hard. I have all of the tools to be doing what I'm doing and to have gotten to the schools I've gone into. And it's just, it's just not a fair comment. Sure. We can acknowledge that your look is, um, Uh, part of the casting process. Sure. But that, that, that is never a reason for like, why someone was cast in something. That that is not that, like a lot of hard work goes into it. A lot of talent and dedication goes into. Being in this industry. And I think like everyone just needs to recognize that and not like, compare yourself to others and put someone down, um, for that reason. You know? So it's, it's, it's so, it's like very prevalent in my life, this, this topic. So it's, it's just crazy.

I mean, just thank you for speaking to it, uh, because I think it's, it's one of those pieces that, and this just is good, humanity, someone else's success is not your failure. I. Just not, it can't be. And so walking through this college experience or a professional experience, we, we have to be community. We have to lift each other up, like, and, and those comments do the exact opposite. And it's, it's really, it's really damaging and it's one of those things that, again, I just, I appreciate that you, you can come here and speak with the experience of this so that people can really start to understand if that starts to ticker across your brain as you're talking to a, an artist of color. Either in the college sector or uh, or in the professional world really take stock of what it is. Are you actually saying, what are you actually saying when you say that comment

Yeah,

versus say, congratulations on the job. Like it's it's one of those internal biases that really need to get checked and need to get checked in significant ways.

Yeah, it's extreme. It's extremely demeaning, and I just think like there's enough room for everyone in this industry. There's, there's, there's room for everyone. Uh, so you should never, like, see someone else's success and, um, yeah, and, and, and like, let that. Affect you and let, and let that like cause you to say anything negative to that person. It should just be like, that's their success and now I'm gonna work on my journey. You know, everyone different journeys and you don't have to comment on someone's looks, you know, it's just

And also make assumptions about what anyone's thinking on the other side of the table. Cuz you don't know. You don't know what the other side of the college table is listening or thinking about or what their decision making is. We don't get that, we're not privy to that information.

No, yeah.

and I, I mean, I will say on the college side, having been on the receiving end of admissions, It is it is always about the skillset. It's always about the talent piece. Like cuz that is, that's the clincher that is always, always the clincher. Uh, so it's really interesting when people sort of make these kind of snide assumptions.

Like this passive, like putting someone else down to make you feel better kind of idea. It's just like, let's, let's not, like, let's just like will come your way. Let's lift each other up. You know? It's, it's we, that's what we should do.

Yeah. Yeah. Oh, thank you. Thank you for, uh, for going down that path with me. I appreciate it. Um, yeah, I do wanna talk, I talk with everyone about finances. Colleges are, you know, at all time highs in terms of tuition. So I ask everyone from your point of view, going to UCLA four years, did you overspend, underspend, or get it just right.

Okay, so I think I got it fairly right. Um,

I will take fairly, right?

I'm gonna be honest, it's not like my area of expertise I really had to my parents and my sister was really good about like loans and all, all of that. Um, so I really had to like lean on some family members with that. But I will say I did not graduate with a bunch of debt.

Huge.

Not at all because I had in-state tuition and I had some great grants and scholarships. Um, something about UCLA that was really intriguing was that they have theater, TFT Theater, film and television specific, um, scholarships that they give out every year. And they have a lot of them. They have a lot.

A lot that awards banquet is epic.

Yeah, and it's so easy to apply. You just copy and paste the same application to a handful, but just a bunch, a bunch, um, of scholarships. And every year I, I got one and every year it increased with the amount that I was given in my senior year, it was like, like the most. So, um, I would say that was a big pull with UCLA was the, um, the cost to go there for in-state tuition. Um, financial aid, scholarship grants, all of that altogether, um, like resulted in me leaving UCLA with not too much debt. So I'm really happy about that. I would've not have gotten that, um, going outta state. So it was definitely something I thought about and something I'm like, I'm happy with right now. Just a little bit, a little bit of, um, debt, but nothing, nothing too crazy.

So it's it's manageable debt that you feel like you'll be able to and again. Having been on the road, you know, the, it's, it feels like you're in a good place to be able to manage that debt. And I, and I love that. I actually think taking on debt as a young adult, if it's within reason, is actually great training for adulthood. Like it is actually, it's, it's not. That you can't take on debt. It's just making sure that you're not taking on debt that then hamstrings your ability to go after the thing that you trained for.

Totally. Yeah. Like if I had, if I was in a, a bunch of student debt right now, then the idea of like, of soon moving out to New York City to live on my own and grind there, like that would be, I. Hard, that would be a hard thing cuz I'd be like, oh well I have this student debt, but I also have these plans of moving to the city. Like, what, what, what do I do about that? How do I save up enough? How do I get the jobs I need to do to like pursue the dream? Cuz yeah, at the end of the day, musical theater's not always gonna pay the best. Right? So you have to think about those things, unfortunately. Um, and that was a big, a big factor in me choosing UCLA. It was like all of the things I've already talked about, plus the financial side of things. It just, it ended up working out.

Amazing. Uh, that's, that's a win. And we celebrate those wins here on this podcast. Cause it's, it's just great to sort of know. Um, I know we've talked about this a little bit. You, you just went on your first national tour. All over the nation. You were just everywhere. Your Instagram and TikTok were just like wildly full of fun. Like it was very nostalgic for me having once been on the road, like seeing you in all of these theaters and on the bus and just living what looked like just a really fun, fun time. Um, we just spoke to Carla Stickler and she. Shared this idea that on her first tour, which happened to be in Asia, she felt like she did not know what she was doing and she was gonna get fired at every turn because there were all these things that she sort of had to learn on the job that she didn't feel like she had gotten prepped for, uh, from school. Which makes sense. School is not always industry driven. I'm curious, did you learn. Any special lessons or skills on the job with the tour of Anastasia while you were going?

Yeah, there were, it was, it was honestly a crazy experience cuz it. Really is, it's your first national tour, so it's like you learn as you go. There were the basic things that school taught me as in like how to maintain great vocal health, right? But I didn't learn in school how to maintain great vocal health. When you're at Colorado Springs Elevation, you can barely freaking breathe and like you, like, it's just like these little things, right? So no one's there to hold your hand the way that they're able to hold your hand in school. Like you have your people that you have your professors, um, that you can talk to, and, um, they're there for you. But you know, you're really, you're really there for yourself when you're on the road. So it's a lot of just being independent. Something I really learned on the road, which I. Yeah. Yeah. UCLA didn't prepare me for this. It was being an understudy. Uh, it was my first time being an understudy, and that was major. I was understanding Anya, which is like the title character, Anastasia. And that was very, a very interesting journey, a very difficult journey and rewarding jour journey, both physically and mentally. Right. There's this like, something that I wasn't prepared for one was kind of like, You know, you don't get that same attention and rehearsals that the, the lead gets. Not even like, not

a 10th. a 10th. if you're lucky.

I had one vocal rehearsal, ran the entire show, one rehearsal to get blocking for ACT one, one rehearsal to get blocking for act two A put in. A month and a half later, I made my debut like that, like that, like that quick, no one was there to hold again. This was like this idea of holding my hand. No one was there to hold my hand. It was very much like, okay, you booked this, we trust you, and now just go do it. Just go do it like this. Just go do. We're gonna call you one morning and you're gonna go and you're gonna be the lead, even though you dance in the ensemble every day. Like it. That was a very crazy learning curve. Um, was just this idea of like, Playing that big of a role at this caliber and just being thrown into it, it's like I've already is a huge role. I'm nervous. It's, it's a national tour. I'm nervous and now I'm even extra nervous cause I didn't get the same prep as the people around me that I'm like on the stage with the other leads. So, um, that idea of just really like, believing in yourself and like being your own cheerleader and just like, Just doing it. That was something that school didn't really prep me for. Cuz at school you go into class, you prep and you do it. You don't just get thrown into things the way you do in the real world sometimes. So that was something I really had to find that within myself. Um, which I. Honestly like that experience was it, it was honestly a great learning experience because now I feel like I could do anything that sounds so kind of conceited, but like, okay, if I can, like with one hour notice, go and sing journey to the past and in my dreams in front of a packed house, like I can go into this audition and sing the same book, like same song that I've had in my book for years. Like I feel way more grounded as a performer from that experience. So, yeah, and it's also that like imposter syndrome thing there. I honestly could speak so much on like, Everything about this, like you've really opened up a can of worms because there's also this like, well, I'm the understudy. So is that gonna be like underwhelming for the audience to have the understudy step out and do all this? Like, am I gonna disappoint anyone? Am I disappointing my peer, like my coworkers here, like that it's me going on today instead of like the person who is in the playbill as on, you know? So it's also like squashing that idea. That's something I didn't do in college. Squashing that idea of like, No, like I, I'm an understudy because I can do it too. There's many, many girls that can play Anya and I'm one of them. And here's my, here's me like, and I am just as great as any other understudy, any standby, any swing, any person that is just playing the role. That was a big learning curve for me. I was, I was petrified that people would walk into the lobby, read Anya, Thalia Atallah, and instantly be like, Ugh, dang. Dang dang it. Like I was so scared of that and I squashed that instantly. So it's just all those little things that you just, you have to learn along the way. Um, a lot of it was just personal growth versus like actual technique and like, yeah, that kind of stuff. It was more just like a personal growth journey on that tour.

Yeah, it's literally where the rubber meets the road. It's like you, you've, you've trained for all of these years, now you gotta put it into practice and there's bumps along the way. Ooh, that understudy piece, because how could you, how could you possibly be prepared for that, even. Even as college understudies or high school understudies, it's never gonna be the same sort of, um, impact or flying without a safety net kind of feel. As, as that, when I love that imposter syndrome, the like, oh, they're all gonna walk in the lobby and then turn around.

Like I had these nightmares, I'd be like tossing and turning in bed. Like the whole audience is gonna be disappointed. They're gonna PAYE this money to see Anastasia and then it's gonna be me. And they're gonna be like, dang it, it's Thalia. Like I had the, all of these negative, negative thoughts that. Were really quickly squashed and, and like granted. some of that has to do with like how supportive my cast was. Like if you have a good support system, it really helps. So, um, yeah, that was, that was like a big learning curve for me

Yeah. And building out the evidence like, cuz I'm sure your experience. from your first time performing versus the 10th time you went on was very different, and because you have a different evidence file, by the time you get to that 10th performance where you're like, oh, well, I know where I'm secure. It's always scary. It's always like being shot out of a cannon, but there's a sense of like, but I know my Anya, or I know my, uh, version of this role and what I offer, what I offer it.

Yeah, that that is, that's exactly it. It's like, I know I have, I know I have it. I wouldn't be here if I didn't. And I just have to be confident that I'd be confident in myself and.

And you're doing it. You're doing it.

Yeah, I made it to the other end. I did it. Yeah.

Yes you did. Oh, and again, I can't wait for people to hear about your next journey, cuz I think you're gonna learn even more on that path, which is gonna be great. I'm not teeing it up. I'm, I swear I'm not, I'm not gonna say a word. Um, I do wanna ask because I, I truly believe that theater training and creativity training is utterly transferable. I think you can take these skills of communication, of empathy, of, uh, discipline and rigor. You can, you can take that to med school, you could take that to journalism. You could take that just about anywhere, uh, because they're really valuable skills. I'm curious for you, where do you see these transferable skills leading you in the future? Um, you know, I. In the next 5, 10, 15, 20 years, do you have any sort of thoughts about unique industry pathways based on the skillset that you, you've already honed?

Yeah, I'd say something that I really see for myself in the future, obviously is pursuing, musical theater as in like singing, dancing, acting on the stage, more tours. The eventual goal is to be in New York City doing the Broadway, doing the off-Broadway thing. But I also have a passion for teaching, for teaching choreography, teaching class, doing master classes. And I feel like something I really learned on tour, Was how to properly communicate with people, how to be a kind, understanding person, understanding that in on tour you live with the same people that you work with, with the same people that you get dinner with, with the same people that you go grab drinks with, with the same people at your birthday brunch, uh, 4th of July. Like it's, it's all the same people. So just understanding those boundaries and those lines of, okay. This is my coworker, but this is also my best friend, but this is also my roommate, but this is also my understudy, but this is also my swing. Like, it's just like, well, not my, cause that's not the proper, a understanding or a swing. Like, it's all just, um, it's just navigating those worlds and those relationships is something that, I wanna, like, take with me into the future with my future contracts. And, I wanna be able to like, like I, I really do have a passion for, for teaching, like what I've learned to others. So being able to like, do workshops and like choreograph and like speak on my experiences. Um, I think that, yeah, the communication aspect, it's key. It's, it's honestly, it's just being a nice person that's like the big, not talking badly about others and just being a nice person to everyone and like, especially cuz you don't know what someone's going through that day. Truly when you're every day with the same people and you're stepping into the theater and someone's not being very kind to you, or you can tell someone's wall is up or like something, like, you have to like understand how to navigate all these different situations. Um, and that those are life lessons that I will take with me into everything that I start doing after this, it's just, it's ma it's really major. Yeah, because you know like in college you just easily get with your girls and you chat and you're like, oh my God, did you see them all that? Or you do blah, blah. And you just say like, some of the silliest stuff that's maybe not always the nicest stuff. And it always comes back to bite you in the butt. And especially on tour, it will come back 10 times over and bite you in the butt cuz it's such a small community. It's just. And theater in general is a small community, but when you're in a a 20 person cast on the road for 10 months, everyone knows everything. And so you just always have to be cognizant of that, which is something that you should just be like in, in, in life in general. It's something I'm learning every day, so,

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and I would even add to that. Like also remember, the stage manager is literally writing rehearsal and production reports that go to the entire artistic team. So they also get daily check-ins and buzzes about who you are within their professional world, which can either be a really good thing or bad thing depending on how you are engaging with that world.

Everyone knows everything. The orchestra knows everything about you. Stage manager had a light. They know everything. There was one time. Where it was seven in the morning, we had to get on the bus and I was grumpy because I was late that morning. And so when you're late, you have to put your own luggage onto the bus. I've got really heavy luggage. I go to put my luggage in the bus, I tweak my knee and I'm like cussing under my breath. I'm like, like I was so just like irritated because I'm like, I go have to go dance now on point, and I just tweaked my knee. Ugh. Annoying. That night company meeting. Thalia, could you come talk to us? Are you okay? We noticed some unhappy behavior this morning and I literally just broke down cause I'm like, this is just my life. Like, I was just upset this morning. It has nothing to do with the workplace, but it does. It always does. So it's just like little things like that I learned. It was just, it's crazy. You gotta, you just have to, you know, just watch out and just always have the best intentions. You know, it's just, and you'll be.

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Oh, this is, this is such a great conversation. Um, I ask everyone this and as we're sort of getting towards the end, uh, you know, I, I, I love talking about college. I think it's a really, uh, magical place for people to sort of grow up and really find themselves. I think it's a beautiful tool for self, you know, reflection. And I think it's often, especially from those who are in high school who are looking up towards college, I think it's often a little bit misunderstood. So with that, is there anything that you wish you had better understood about the college application process or about going to college before you started?

Yeah, totally. I think that something I better understand now, now that I've graduated is that there are so many different. Paths and roads a person can take to achieve the same thing that you're achieving. So just because a school has maybe the top name or has a really great reputation, or is known to be the hardest musical, like Michigan, like these, these schools that every. Theater girl and guy are just thinking like, that's the end all be all. It's not the end all be all. There are so many amazing programs that have so many amazing things to offer and each person is unique. Each person's training is unique, their talents are unique. So they just need, like, I just think every person applying for college just needs to find what they need for themselves. Um, find that in a school versus, well, what's the top school like? What is the top school? Cause yeah, there are top schools, but there's also, I. So much that like the college realm has to offer, that you just have to do your research and find out what's gonna make you the best performer, best person possible, what's gonna make you happiest. And maybe that's not always like the ranked technical number one school. Um, Yeah, I think that would be my number one advice because I remember going into it just thinking I need to go to the schools that everyone says are the best schools. When in reality, like I have so many friends going to maybe smaller schools that are coming out with so many tools in their belts, like just ready to go and, and booking and, and, and it's because that they, they found what they needed for themselves and, are like successful. So that, that's kind of, that's kind of my advice there.

That's brilliant advice and, and really, really, really insightful cuz I, I, I think you, you hit the nail on the head with the idea of like, your goals and then find the schools that match. Ugh. So great. So great. Like I said earlier, proud doesn't even begin to cover the feelings I've got about you and this moment, and. The, the beautiful career that's already unfolding for yourself in front of you. So congratulations on all your accomplishments and gigs, and also for just being a great human, because that's really, that's what we're about. Um, I can't wait to tell people about your upcoming gig. Uh, we'll, we'll give some updates when we can. but until then, just congratulations on taking such clear, actionable steps towards making your dreams, goals. And then just slaying those goals left, right, and center. and really just thank you for taking your time out today for, for chatting with us.

Of course. Thank you. And thank you for everything you do. I know you're just affecting so many students and people out there with what you do. You've affected me so much, um, and have just been such a great support system for. Me and so we are so lucky to have you

Uh, we're trying. We're trying. Uh, so if, if people wanna get ahold of you and see what you're up to, how might they do so?

Yeah. So I'm really active on Instagram. Uh, my Instagram is hey, with two Ys, period. Thalia. Hey Thalia. Uh, I have a website just thaliaatallah.com and I post on TikTok sometimes. I think that's Thalia Thalia 18. Yeah, I would say those are the three major social media sites that you can follow me on. I, I love, I post all the time. You will not miss out on the journey,

This is true. This is, I can, I can vouch for that. Um, and we'll make sure those links are in the episode description. Uh, thank you Thalia. Again, just a beautiful reflections and so glad to have you in my life, but also to have you share your story with all these listeners.

Oh, of course. Thanks for having me.

That's another interview episode of the Creative College Journey podcast. We hope this episode with Thalia Atallah was beneficial to you and want to thank you for taking time out of your busy day to listen. If you are in need of some encouragement, guidance, and inspiration for your college journey and would like to work with Scott, don't hesitate to head out to our website, www.creativecollegejourney.com to schedule a free. No obligation. One hour consultation to find out the many ways the Creative College journey can help you on your path. You can also find Scott Barnhardt on Instagram at Scott Barnhardt. If you enjoy the show, please rate and review us on Apple Podcasts. It really does help others find us. And be sure to come back in the coming weeks for more discussions about creative college admissions, lowering the temperature on the process and the many industry pathways and transferable skills that a creative education and life can offer. Don't forget, it's not where you go to school, but how you go to school. That counts. Thank you.

you did it.

did it.